Mind's Eye Re: Felicitations

Best of luck on your new year mission.  Sniffle Sniffle.  These blankets and UGGs are mighty cozy. For now.

On Tuesday, December 31, 2013 4:59:28 PM UTC-5, Gabby wrote:
Happy New Year to you and all too. Let's see what we can do to get you out of your dormant position. :)

Am Sonntag, 29. Dezember 2013 06:52:04 UTC+1 schrieb archytas:
All the best for the New Year to all.    Anyone going to try something new?  I fancy Allan will make great strides capturing a dominant position in the cuckoo clock import-export trade between Zanibar and Madagascar.  So no change there.  I plan to write something funny, though the day job is making somewhat whithering demands.

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Re: Mind's Eye Re: Felicitations

Success in the coming year..

Sent from my android device.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gabby <gabbydott@gmail.com>
To: minds-eye@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 22:59
Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Felicitations

Happy New Year to you and all too. Let's see what we can do to get you out of your dormant position. :)

Am Sonntag, 29. Dezember 2013 06:52:04 UTC+1 schrieb archytas:
All the best for the New Year to all.    Anyone going to try something new?  I fancy Allan will make great strides capturing a dominant position in the cuckoo clock import-export trade between Zanibar and Madagascar.  So no change there.  I plan to write something funny, though the day job is making somewhat whithering demands.

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Re: Mind's Eye Re: Felicitations

No!, NO!. Not the whip!!!

Sent from my android device.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gabby <gabbydott@gmail.com>
To: minds-eye@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 22:59
Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Felicitations

Happy New Year to you and all too. Let's see what we can do to get you out of your dormant position. :)

Am Sonntag, 29. Dezember 2013 06:52:04 UTC+1 schrieb archytas:
All the best for the New Year to all.    Anyone going to try something new?  I fancy Allan will make great strides capturing a dominant position in the cuckoo clock import-export trade between Zanibar and Madagascar.  So no change there.  I plan to write something funny, though the day job is making somewhat whithering demands.

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Mind's Eye Re: Felicitations

Happy New Year to you and all too. Let's see what we can do to get you out of your dormant position. :)

Am Sonntag, 29. Dezember 2013 06:52:04 UTC+1 schrieb archytas:
All the best for the New Year to all.    Anyone going to try something new?  I fancy Allan will make great strides capturing a dominant position in the cuckoo clock import-export trade between Zanibar and Madagascar.  So no change there.  I plan to write something funny, though the day job is making somewhat whithering demands.

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Re: Mind's Eye mistaken origins

I don't know if I would go as far as saying that our work ethics corrupts our otherwise perfect identities, but certainly Vorsprung durch Technik helps to not getting caught red handed. There goes your eyes and memory.

Am Donnerstag, 19. Dezember 2013 05:43:03 UTC+1 schrieb Ash:
There seems to be an impenetrable veil crafted by identity that makes us
weave a tale of vitality and protects from a colder harshness, it seems
against the suffocation of invisibility. I used to think adults were a
more dangerous variety of children and would now like to look back and
see people being people and have things fall into place. I am terrified
of the spotlight but love to scout, my myth is more favorable than the
practice it derives from like many others perhaps. I enjoy kindness but
often have to temper a strong contempt for the society I know and see,
honesty in that regard would've been the end of a young story, it would
destroy the present as well, though circumstances seem almost opposite.
Funny. Old habits and lessons are hard to overcome, I know of truth as a
trial that demands courage without an ounce of aesthetic, everything
comes from the bottom-up, but I am missing the other half of the story
(or my story). That half involves artificial boundaries arising from
identity, myth and practice (for me). It is odd to see and know but be
barred from belief.

Moving on.. :) I get the impression that what we see in dishonesty and
usury is a suspension of cultural progress, reflected in individual
maturity as an inability to mentally overcome those challenges. Those in
power have everything to gain whether in personal, professional or
governance by rewards for callous and sometimes sociopathic
manipulations. Part of the myth that perpetuates this seems to be the
prestige of success, as if it were a character virtue. On practical
grounds I agree that we need to promote and sometimes tolerate those who
are capable and willing to get the job done but very little of this is
in the public discourse, shining the light into one area moves the
problem, cockroaches are likely a fitting image in some cases. I have
heard that Germans have a similar work ethic to Americans Gabby, I
wonder if your prisons are as full. Justice resides in the eyes and
memory alone, I think.

On 12/17/2013 10:57 AM, Gabby wrote:
> Only a fool would want to take a picture of transparency and then
> render it with the right movie maker software to become a star.
>
> Am Sonntag, 15. Dezember 2013 21:44:34 UTC+1 schrieb archytas:
>
>     Origin blurrs and is forever deferred.  Our memories are
>     inventive, future mapping, capable of seeing virtual, coloured
>     worlds of the 'beige' universe and outcomes where there will be no
>     evidence only narratives.  Politicians and other crooks organise
>     for there only to be narrative recall.  We could organise now for
>     evidence to be prioritised more.  This remains tough where
>     declaring the evidence is to disclose it to the enemy as in our
>     war situations, but one can see the principle in such as the
>     Duggan Inquest.  You can google the 12 weeks of transcripts only
>     to discover 5 seconds of good CCTV would tell you more than many
>     days of testimony and deliberation.  I think we could establish
>     more 'evidence miracles' across society.  Of course, Allan and I
>     would not carry cameras on a quest for the soul.
>
>     On Sunday, 15 December 2013 11:20:06 UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:
>
>         Both Bush and Blair wanted to be the glorious war time
>         leader..  the problem there is you can not start the war..  as
>         for their making peace with god.. well I am not them,,  As for
>         the notion of the soul is not mine,,  It oddly is a concept
>         that appears to flow through all beliefs from very beginning
>         of  man through our time..  the soul is a commonality of
>         mankind..  an idea that I have been exploring  unfortunately
>         you have been dragged along with me on this journey ,  it is
>         nice to explore an idea that is true and has value..  one of
>         those rare gem stones..
>
>         Politicians  the old definition for a politician was a
>         professional liar..  so you can expect no more.. all one can
>         do is realize what their profession really is. In a period of
>         my life to do my job I had to become a professional liar.. I
>         Needed to become super good guy and super bad guy at the same
>         moment..  not an healthy emotional place to be in  and I did
>         pay a heavy price.. Difference is I knew the truth of who I
>         really was and so did my colleges that I worked with..  we
>         knew what was lies.. and that allows one to keep a healthy
>         orientation  toward truth,,  I could tell you anything to the
>         point off passing any lie detector test. What I could not due
>         is lie to myself..  I had to live in reality no how bad it
>         really was..   strangely knowing and searching for truth leads
>         to spirituality..  not churchianity where most people end up..
>
>         The ultimate search is for our origins..  in my case I find my
>         origin is in my Soul..  for me it is not a mistaken origin.
>
>         Matrix -- Soul rules the body
>          (           --  Do No Harm
>            )
>         [_D  Allan H
>
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
>         To: mind...@googlegroups.com
>         Sent: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 2:33 AM
>         Subject: Re: Mind's Eye mistaken origins
>
>         I have a lot of time fro what Andrew and Pol say on this.  I
>         don't approve of lying, though can see some circumstances when
>         one must.  Development of virtue on an internal basis allows
>         the dreadful state of what passes for politics and an
>         increasingly corrupt academy and media.  I don't mean any
>         attack on Allan's notion of soul here, or religious
>         development that is genuinely universal, or philosophy in
>         terms of 'unbewitching language'.  It's that point at with the
>         likes of Blair and Bush lay claim to have made peace with god
>         when they are concealing their dirty hands.  At times in the
>         past truth was no concern, only who was speaking and I feel we
>         are now stuck with an elite doing exactly this.  We have whole
>         disciplines like economics and most business teaching that
>         have no basis in truth or free enquiry.  I believe this is
>         part of deep-rooted elitism that starts with the classics,
>         tragedy and virtue ethics that is little more than
>         rationalisation.  The free table was part of this, so even
>         communism has root in slavery.  amongst other things this has
>         left us with an education system focused on material most
>         can't really get into.
>
>         Here I can say 'All British are liars.  I am British' sure
>         that all this means concerns cracking a few grins.  In
>         philosophy the second proposition is counterexample to the
>         first.  Both cannot be true in a certain view of language
>         logic, but we are aware of the ironic meaning.  I never took
>         much to 'all swans are white, therefore there are no black
>         swans'.  There turned out to be some in Australia, but in more
>         modern language the clue is they have black pigmentation round
>         the eyes and could genetically manipulate that in the main
>         body feathers.  There is a long history from Socrates' doxa,
>         through Bacon's Idols, Descartes' radical doubt, Nietzsche's
>         more radical doubt, Wittgenstein's biological-iconic view of
>         language to more recent work (Dan Sperber) that we have
>         argument wrong.  I want to doubt without leaving us in an
>         anything goes morality or relying on heroes of argument like
>         politicians taking us into wars we don't want.
>
>         On Saturday, 14 December 2013 20:55:22 UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:
>
>             I ended up putting a lot of time into philosophy. In
>             starting it was not by choice and did not expect my life
>             to become an obsession.
>
>             I have been very blessed with people who have the ability
>             to sift through the dross and then share their precious
>             gems with me.
>
>             Thank You you are a treasure.
>
>             Matrix : Soul controls mind.
>              (            : Do No Harm
>             [_D Allan H
>
>             -----Original Message-----
>             From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
>             To: mind...@googlegroups.com
>             Sent: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 7:24 PM
>             Subject: Mind's Eye mistaken origins
>
>             I sunk a lot of costs in philosophy.  The stuff was around
>             at university and research was supposed to require
>             epistemology.  Some of the experience was enjoyable.  It
>             didn't shake convictions I learned in science or as a
>             detective.  Roughly put there is evidence and the rest is
>             piss and wind.  Evidence relies on audiences capable of
>             understanding and these are rare. I even bought a book
>             called 'Audiences' to learn more, but like most academic
>             books and papers, it disappointed.  You have to read an
>             awful lot of dross to find the few gems.  Whilst doing
>             this you can be suckered , even seduced by arguments that
>             convince that you are on a righteous path to truth.  The
>             Greeks, probably copying and developing more eastern work,
>             pondered a lot on virtue ethics, living in a slave economy
>             and seemingly unaware the edifice built was ideal for
>             cheats who could feign integrity; a system ideal for jerks
>             living off the labour of others and worse.
>
>             It's tough being honest, even to the extent one of the
>             biggest lies we are told is that honesty is the best
>             policy.  Most systems I've experienced are designed to
>             prevent honesty.  We use manners, etiquette and due
>             process instead.  Evidence is replaced by human recall of
>             what it was.  We have chronic problems because of this.
>              Most of us are lousy eye-witnesses.  I want to argue we
>             are trapped in Greek origins, the mentality of an elite
>             who routinely allowed and justified slavery.
>
>             Anyone any ideas?
>             --
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Re: Mind's Eye Felicitations

You also RP

Sent from my android device.

-----Original Message-----
From: RP Singh <1234rp@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <minds-eye@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 9:53
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Felicitations

Happy and prosperous New Year to you all!


On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 3:40 PM, Allan H <allanh1946@gmail.com> wrote:
Hope you are feeling better soon Molly


Matrix : Soul controls mind.
 (            : Do No Harm
[_D Allan H

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Felicitations

We've all got the flu here.  Ho, ho, ho, cough cough.  All the best for the upcoming year, no matter how wonderful or rocky the start.

On Sunday, December 29, 2013 5:19:53 AM UTC-5, Allan Heretic wrote:
LOL  cuckoo clocks  now that is an interesting idea

I am wish everyone a happy joyous and successful new year..    Allan


On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 10:52 PM, archytas <nwt...@gmail.com> wrote:
All the best for the New Year to all.    Anyone going to try something new?  I fancy Allan will make great strides capturing a dominant position in the cuckoo clock import-export trade between Zanibar and Madagascar.  So no change there.  I plan to write something funny, though the day job is making somewhat whithering demands.

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--
 (
  )
|_D Allan

Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..

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Re: Mind's Eye Felicitations

Happy and prosperous New Year to you all!


On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 3:40 PM, Allan H <allanh1946@gmail.com> wrote:
Hope you are feeling better soon Molly


Matrix : Soul controls mind.
 (            : Do No Harm
[_D Allan H

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Felicitations

We've all got the flu here.  Ho, ho, ho, cough cough.  All the best for the upcoming year, no matter how wonderful or rocky the start.

On Sunday, December 29, 2013 5:19:53 AM UTC-5, Allan Heretic wrote:
LOL  cuckoo clocks  now that is an interesting idea

I am wish everyone a happy joyous and successful new year..    Allan


On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 10:52 PM, archytas <nwt...@gmail.com> wrote:
All the best for the New Year to all.    Anyone going to try something new?  I fancy Allan will make great strides capturing a dominant position in the cuckoo clock import-export trade between Zanibar and Madagascar.  So no change there.  I plan to write something funny, though the day job is making somewhat whithering demands.

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--
 (
  )
|_D Allan

Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..

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Re: Mind's Eye P universes

As there are worlds other than the Earth , there are in all probability other universes. That there are infinite number of them seem to be the fact as there is infinity in almost everything.


On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 8:04 PM, Allan H <allanh1946@gmail.com> wrote:
Well a thought to warm one's feet while contemplating the fire.

People have been discussing parallel universes. It seems christianity is dead set against the idea. But and here is the great but. It seems they insist there is at least two more. They refer to these parallel universes are called 'Heaven' and 'Hell'

Are there are several universes the christian churches seem to say so.

Matrix : Soul controls mind.
 (            : Do No Harm
[_D Allan H

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Re: Mind's Eye Re: P universes

I remember arguing years ago that there was only 1 universe. And so was I told and taught by the christian teacher saying there was only one universe.

That is the funny part speaking about one while referring to three different universes. That Molly does not say there are only three..maybe the muslims and jews have again totally seperated who really knows

Matrix : Soul controls mind.
 (            : Do No Harm
[_D Allan H

-----Original Message-----
From: Molly <mollyb363@gmail.com>
To: minds-eye@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 5:14 PM
Subject: Mind's Eye Re: P universes

The Christians seem to like a good trinity!  If there are parallel universes, why would there need to be a limit to them?  why not an infinite number?

On Monday, December 30, 2013 9:34:54 AM UTC-5, Allan Heretic wrote:
Well a thought to warm one's feet while contemplating the fire.

People have been discussing parallel universes. It seems christianity is dead set against the idea. But and here is the great but. It seems they insist there is at least two more. They refer to these parallel universes are called 'Heaven' and 'Hell'

Are there are several universes the christian churches seem to say so.

Matrix : Soul controls mind.
 (            : Do No Harm
[_D Allan H

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Mind's Eye Re: P universes

The Christians seem to like a good trinity!  If there are parallel universes, why would there need to be a limit to them?  why not an infinite number?

On Monday, December 30, 2013 9:34:54 AM UTC-5, Allan Heretic wrote:
Well a thought to warm one's feet while contemplating the fire.

People have been discussing parallel universes. It seems christianity is dead set against the idea. But and here is the great but. It seems they insist there is at least two more. They refer to these parallel universes are called 'Heaven' and 'Hell'

Are there are several universes the christian churches seem to say so.

Matrix : Soul controls mind.
 (            : Do No Harm
[_D Allan H

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Mind's Eye P universes

Well a thought to warm one's feet while contemplating the fire.

People have been discussing parallel universes. It seems christianity is dead set against the idea. But and here is the great but. It seems they insist there is at least two more. They refer to these parallel universes are called 'Heaven' and 'Hell'

Are there are several universes the christian churches seem to say so.

Matrix : Soul controls mind.
 (            : Do No Harm
[_D Allan H

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Re: Mind's Eye Felicitations

Hope you are feeling better soon Molly

Matrix : Soul controls mind.
 (            : Do No Harm
[_D Allan H

-----Original Message-----
From: Molly <mollyb363@gmail.com>
To: minds-eye@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Felicitations

We've all got the flu here.  Ho, ho, ho, cough cough.  All the best for the upcoming year, no matter how wonderful or rocky the start.

On Sunday, December 29, 2013 5:19:53 AM UTC-5, Allan Heretic wrote:
LOL  cuckoo clocks  now that is an interesting idea

I am wish everyone a happy joyous and successful new year..    Allan


On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 10:52 PM, archytas <nwt...@gmail.com> wrote:
All the best for the New Year to all.    Anyone going to try something new?  I fancy Allan will make great strides capturing a dominant position in the cuckoo clock import-export trade between Zanibar and Madagascar.  So no change there.  I plan to write something funny, though the day job is making somewhat whithering demands.

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Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..

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Re: Mind's Eye Felicitations

Yes I have noticed that you and your dog have been blocking the bad weather from reaching me. Keep up the good work. We do appreciate you facing and battling the extreme weather. Thank you now put up your feet in front of the warm fire and listen to the passing of time or at least the marking points

Matrix : Soul controls mind.
 (            : Do No Harm
[_D Allan H

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwterry@gmail.com>
To: minds-eye@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 11:45 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Felicitations

All the best to you and your wife Allan.  I've just been out with the hound, finally beaten back by wind and horrible wet snowfall (at least I was).  Carving cuckoos in front of the fire would indeed be preferable.  

On Sunday, 29 December 2013 10:19:53 UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:
LOL  cuckoo clocks  now that is an interesting idea

I am wish everyone a happy joyous and successful new year..    Allan


On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 10:52 PM, archytas <nwt...@gmail.com> wrote:
All the best for the New Year to all.    Anyone going to try something new?  I fancy Allan will make great strides capturing a dominant position in the cuckoo clock import-export trade between Zanibar and Madagascar.  So no change there.  I plan to write something funny, though the day job is making somewhat whithering demands.

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Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..

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Re: Mind's Eye Felicitations

All the best to you and your wife Allan.  I've just been out with the hound, finally beaten back by wind and horrible wet snowfall (at least I was).  Carving cuckoos in front of the fire would indeed be preferable.  

On Sunday, 29 December 2013 10:19:53 UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:
LOL  cuckoo clocks  now that is an interesting idea

I am wish everyone a happy joyous and successful new year..    Allan


On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 10:52 PM, archytas <nwt...@gmail.com> wrote:
All the best for the New Year to all.    Anyone going to try something new?  I fancy Allan will make great strides capturing a dominant position in the cuckoo clock import-export trade between Zanibar and Madagascar.  So no change there.  I plan to write something funny, though the day job is making somewhat whithering demands.

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Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..

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Re: Mind's Eye Felicitations

We've all got the flu here.  Ho, ho, ho, cough cough.  All the best for the upcoming year, no matter how wonderful or rocky the start.

On Sunday, December 29, 2013 5:19:53 AM UTC-5, Allan Heretic wrote:
LOL  cuckoo clocks  now that is an interesting idea

I am wish everyone a happy joyous and successful new year..    Allan


On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 10:52 PM, archytas <nwt...@gmail.com> wrote:
All the best for the New Year to all.    Anyone going to try something new?  I fancy Allan will make great strides capturing a dominant position in the cuckoo clock import-export trade between Zanibar and Madagascar.  So no change there.  I plan to write something funny, though the day job is making somewhat whithering demands.

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Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..

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Re: Mind's Eye Felicitations

LOL  cuckoo clocks  now that is an interesting idea

I am wish everyone a happy joyous and successful new year..    Allan


On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 10:52 PM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
All the best for the New Year to all.    Anyone going to try something new?  I fancy Allan will make great strides capturing a dominant position in the cuckoo clock import-export trade between Zanibar and Madagascar.  So no change there.  I plan to write something funny, though the day job is making somewhat whithering demands.

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Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..

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Mind's Eye Felicitations

All the best for the New Year to all.    Anyone going to try something new?  I fancy Allan will make great strides capturing a dominant position in the cuckoo clock import-export trade between Zanibar and Madagascar.  So no change there.  I plan to write something funny, though the day job is making somewhat whithering demands.

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Re: Mind's Eye Opinions

We take 'legal opinion' of the sort Gabby mentions.  I like her split from personal statement, yet in this wordy world one can easily be gouged by sensible sounding opinion.

In the Duggan case, a cop (V53) shot Mark Duggan.  He claims to have seen a gun, as do two other cops.  Nine other cops there did not see the gun.  It was found 20 feet away over railings in fairly short grass.  No one saw it fly there (etc.) and other people who were there, including one almost standing where it was supposed to be, did not see it.  One woman says she saw a cop carrying it to plant.  Another guy says he saw the shooting and Duggan was holding a mobile phone.  It's a mess - most evidence involving eye-witnesses is - we use cognitive interviewing to try to sort it out.  The techniques was not used in this case - cops refused to be interviewed.  The jury is having trouble making a decision.

In my opinion, the cops are lying and/or confabulating (this is common in adrenaline fueled situations).  The only conclusion I can reach is that cops put into these situations should have a decent CCTV system.  One could say the same of a simple, transparent arithmetic system amongst our banksters.  Many systems prevent us getting direct evidence, forcing reliance on opinion.  People lie and self-deceive.

Our systems have long relied on opinion.  It may be time to remainder this to a fall back position.

On Wednesday, 18 December 2013 20:33:16 UTC, Gabby wrote:
I expect an opinion to be the result of a weighing process of all pros and cons that I know of, whereas a personal statement has not necessarily been weighed against the weight of the world, so to speak. An opinion therefore feels much more rounder than a personal statement. Both would count as originals still. Whereas the deliberate-rounding-in-order-to-create-truth methodology stems from the bubble industry, which leaves the bubble without own originator - not original. We can agree with all options without having to touch the question of originality if we want to. 

But reporting as an eye-witness is something completely different. Instances of the right and wrong, of law and order, need to be made understood what happened. That is really, really difficult.


2013/12/18 andrew vecsey <andrew...@gmail.com>

Every once in a while there are replies to posts stating (or perhaps complaining)  that the opinions stated are just "personal statements" and/or that the opinions stated are "not original". This leaves me puzzled.  Are not ALL  opinions "personal statements"? And are not ALMOST ALL opinions "not original"?   

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Re: Mind's Eye mistaken origins

Much my own sentiment Ash.  We usually credit Plato, Socrates and Aristotle as very bright and I'm always easily impressed by the engineers like Archimedes and people like Aristarchus who knew Earth was round and its diameter.  Something is very wrong in our thinking and what we do.  i'm very tired of what passes before me on television, film (odd exceptions) and the internet.  As an academic I found myself surrounded more and more by people who really just hacked out the content of a few books as teaching and a professorial class writing junk (guilty myself).  Managerialists took over, from low-level clowns doing data management (giving advice like 'your website will be OK with the legislation as long  as you don't put anything on it') and thieves at the top.  

I suspect the problem is deep, like not seeing the wood for the trees.  How did these Greeks not see problems with slavery - even John Locke wrote slaves taken in just wars deserved their fate.  What is it now that we miss?  That we do is obvious in the trebling of human population in 60 years or so and what a can of worms it is to think about population control, including the Chinese having so few girls, our age balance, the vile sight of a woman dragged away for a forced abortion and even the weird situation of delaying our retirements while youth unemployment is so high.  I have my sights on work ethic and meritocracy through education.  I feel as passionate as an ex-smoker about cigarettes!

It's almost impossible to watch television without adverts for "payday loans" at 4000% - even though I watch 20 minutes late to use the fast-forward or on illegal internet sites.  The madness is writ large.  UK agriculture is worth £5 billion, yet gambling is at £49 billion.  All 17 agencies involved in a Rochdale sex abuse case are held to have failed.  Some twit comes on using words like policies and procedures.  The Obamacare netsite was a disaster.  If you look hard enough, media people look nothing like the rest of us.  Listen to the adverts carefully and you can spot the same people's voices over and over.  Xmas here is full of cooing women in the jingles.  It's so bad I'd almost welcome a Puritan purge.

My thinking often heads in the direction of a planned economy, even though the Soviet experiment was so dire.  A flood of thoughts about freedom come.  Somewhere in this my scientific and spiritual sensibilities are offended by the lack of analytic thinking and marshaled facts on how economies work.  Economics provided no relief.  Wittgenstein was prone to mention an intellectual place of safety.  I have found one can't find this, only protect oneself and family.  The sinecures of academe, like Plato's free table, are provided by 'slaves'.  One might say the same of the vast excesses of the "meritocratic oligarchy" and various scarcity-paid individuals.  Crude notions of equality don't help.  Nor does absolute freedom to do what one wants.

Yet doing what we do ...

On Thursday, 19 December 2013 04:43:03 UTC, Ash wrote:
There seems to be an impenetrable veil crafted by identity that makes us
weave a tale of vitality and protects from a colder harshness, it seems
against the suffocation of invisibility. I used to think adults were a
more dangerous variety of children and would now like to look back and
see people being people and have things fall into place. I am terrified
of the spotlight but love to scout, my myth is more favorable than the
practice it derives from like many others perhaps. I enjoy kindness but
often have to temper a strong contempt for the society I know and see,
honesty in that regard would've been the end of a young story, it would
destroy the present as well, though circumstances seem almost opposite.
Funny. Old habits and lessons are hard to overcome, I know of truth as a
trial that demands courage without an ounce of aesthetic, everything
comes from the bottom-up, but I am missing the other half of the story
(or my story). That half involves artificial boundaries arising from
identity, myth and practice (for me). It is odd to see and know but be
barred from belief.

Moving on.. :) I get the impression that what we see in dishonesty and
usury is a suspension of cultural progress, reflected in individual
maturity as an inability to mentally overcome those challenges. Those in
power have everything to gain whether in personal, professional or
governance by rewards for callous and sometimes sociopathic
manipulations. Part of the myth that perpetuates this seems to be the
prestige of success, as if it were a character virtue. On practical
grounds I agree that we need to promote and sometimes tolerate those who
are capable and willing to get the job done but very little of this is
in the public discourse, shining the light into one area moves the
problem, cockroaches are likely a fitting image in some cases. I have
heard that Germans have a similar work ethic to Americans Gabby, I
wonder if your prisons are as full. Justice resides in the eyes and
memory alone, I think.

On 12/17/2013 10:57 AM, Gabby wrote:
> Only a fool would want to take a picture of transparency and then
> render it with the right movie maker software to become a star.
>
> Am Sonntag, 15. Dezember 2013 21:44:34 UTC+1 schrieb archytas:
>
>     Origin blurrs and is forever deferred.  Our memories are
>     inventive, future mapping, capable of seeing virtual, coloured
>     worlds of the 'beige' universe and outcomes where there will be no
>     evidence only narratives.  Politicians and other crooks organise
>     for there only to be narrative recall.  We could organise now for
>     evidence to be prioritised more.  This remains tough where
>     declaring the evidence is to disclose it to the enemy as in our
>     war situations, but one can see the principle in such as the
>     Duggan Inquest.  You can google the 12 weeks of transcripts only
>     to discover 5 seconds of good CCTV would tell you more than many
>     days of testimony and deliberation.  I think we could establish
>     more 'evidence miracles' across society.  Of course, Allan and I
>     would not carry cameras on a quest for the soul.
>
>     On Sunday, 15 December 2013 11:20:06 UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:
>
>         Both Bush and Blair wanted to be the glorious war time
>         leader..  the problem there is you can not start the war..  as
>         for their making peace with god.. well I am not them,,  As for
>         the notion of the soul is not mine,,  It oddly is a concept
>         that appears to flow through all beliefs from very beginning
>         of  man through our time..  the soul is a commonality of
>         mankind..  an idea that I have been exploring  unfortunately
>         you have been dragged along with me on this journey ,  it is
>         nice to explore an idea that is true and has value..  one of
>         those rare gem stones..
>
>         Politicians  the old definition for a politician was a
>         professional liar..  so you can expect no more.. all one can
>         do is realize what their profession really is. In a period of
>         my life to do my job I had to become a professional liar.. I
>         Needed to become super good guy and super bad guy at the same
>         moment..  not an healthy emotional place to be in  and I did
>         pay a heavy price.. Difference is I knew the truth of who I
>         really was and so did my colleges that I worked with..  we
>         knew what was lies.. and that allows one to keep a healthy
>         orientation  toward truth,,  I could tell you anything to the
>         point off passing any lie detector test. What I could not due
>         is lie to myself..  I had to live in reality no how bad it
>         really was..   strangely knowing and searching for truth leads
>         to spirituality..  not churchianity where most people end up..
>
>         The ultimate search is for our origins..  in my case I find my
>         origin is in my Soul..  for me it is not a mistaken origin.
>
>         Matrix -- Soul rules the body
>          (           --  Do No Harm
>            )
>         [_D  Allan H
>
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
>         To: mind...@googlegroups.com
>         Sent: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 2:33 AM
>         Subject: Re: Mind's Eye mistaken origins
>
>         I have a lot of time fro what Andrew and Pol say on this.  I
>         don't approve of lying, though can see some circumstances when
>         one must.  Development of virtue on an internal basis allows
>         the dreadful state of what passes for politics and an
>         increasingly corrupt academy and media.  I don't mean any
>         attack on Allan's notion of soul here, or religious
>         development that is genuinely universal, or philosophy in
>         terms of 'unbewitching language'.  It's that point at with the
>         likes of Blair and Bush lay claim to have made peace with god
>         when they are concealing their dirty hands.  At times in the
>         past truth was no concern, only who was speaking and I feel we
>         are now stuck with an elite doing exactly this.  We have whole
>         disciplines like economics and most business teaching that
>         have no basis in truth or free enquiry.  I believe this is
>         part of deep-rooted elitism that starts with the classics,
>         tragedy and virtue ethics that is little more than
>         rationalisation.  The free table was part of this, so even
>         communism has root in slavery.  amongst other things this has
>         left us with an education system focused on material most
>         can't really get into.
>
>         Here I can say 'All British are liars.  I am British' sure
>         that all this means concerns cracking a few grins.  In
>         philosophy the second proposition is counterexample to the
>         first.  Both cannot be true in a certain view of language
>         logic, but we are aware of the ironic meaning.  I never took
>         much to 'all swans are white, therefore there are no black
>         swans'.  There turned out to be some in Australia, but in more
>         modern language the clue is they have black pigmentation round
>         the eyes and could genetically manipulate that in the main
>         body feathers.  There is a long history from Socrates' doxa,
>         through Bacon's Idols, Descartes' radical doubt, Nietzsche's
>         more radical doubt, Wittgenstein's biological-iconic view of
>         language to more recent work (Dan Sperber) that we have
>         argument wrong.  I want to doubt without leaving us in an
>         anything goes morality or relying on heroes of argument like
>         politicians taking us into wars we don't want.
>
>         On Saturday, 14 December 2013 20:55:22 UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:
>
>             I ended up putting a lot of time into philosophy. In
>             starting it was not by choice and did not expect my life
>             to become an obsession.
>
>             I have been very blessed with people who have the ability
>             to sift through the dross and then share their precious
>             gems with me.
>
>             Thank You you are a treasure.
>
>             Matrix : Soul controls mind.
>              (            : Do No Harm
>             [_D Allan H
>
>             -----Original Message-----
>             From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
>             To: mind...@googlegroups.com
>             Sent: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 7:24 PM
>             Subject: Mind's Eye mistaken origins
>
>             I sunk a lot of costs in philosophy.  The stuff was around
>             at university and research was supposed to require
>             epistemology.  Some of the experience was enjoyable.  It
>             didn't shake convictions I learned in science or as a
>             detective.  Roughly put there is evidence and the rest is
>             piss and wind.  Evidence relies on audiences capable of
>             understanding and these are rare. I even bought a book
>             called 'Audiences' to learn more, but like most academic
>             books and papers, it disappointed.  You have to read an
>             awful lot of dross to find the few gems.  Whilst doing
>             this you can be suckered , even seduced by arguments that
>             convince that you are on a righteous path to truth.  The
>             Greeks, probably copying and developing more eastern work,
>             pondered a lot on virtue ethics, living in a slave economy
>             and seemingly unaware the edifice built was ideal for
>             cheats who could feign integrity; a system ideal for jerks
>             living off the labour of others and worse.
>
>             It's tough being honest, even to the extent one of the
>             biggest lies we are told is that honesty is the best
>             policy.  Most systems I've experienced are designed to
>             prevent honesty.  We use manners, etiquette and due
>             process instead.  Evidence is replaced by human recall of
>             what it was.  We have chronic problems because of this.
>              Most of us are lousy eye-witnesses.  I want to argue we
>             are trapped in Greek origins, the mentality of an elite
>             who routinely allowed and justified slavery.
>
>             Anyone any ideas?
>             --
>
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Re: Mind's Eye mistaken origins

I enjoyed Vam's insights and miss him too, come to think of it I don't
recall ever disliking anyone here, hope I didn't chase him off. I
thought the timing of this was interesting so I'll share the first thing
I saw when I started browsing, /"All that is required for evil to
triumph is for good men to do nothing." /It stings enough to be true, I
dont know what to say but poli's post is haunting. That is a good thing,
perhaps in part.

On 12/18/2013 11:14 AM, archytas wrote:
> Indeed, I miss our friend. The unlimited is odd as it comes in sizes.
>
> On Wednesday, 18 December 2013 00:25:47 UTC, Molly wrote:
>
> You see the limitation, but not the unlimited. Except for Vammie.
> Now that is eternal.
>
> On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 2:16:54 PM UTC-5, archytas wrote:
>
> How I miss Gabby calling Vam 'Vammie'. Economics is the art
> of enforcing poverty in abundance. Virtue ethics allow
> enslavement and women to go out to funerals after they are 60.
> Philosophy doesn't cope well with the real lunacy of sects of
> zealous men with guns. Hiding the real philosophy (dirty
> hands or macht) means nothing means what it says and the
> hidden agenda rules. Even Machiavelli was more subtle than this.
>
> On Tuesday, 17 December 2013 18:14:21 UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:
>
> What ever Gabby...
>
> Matrix : Soul controls mind.
> ( : Do No Harm
> [_D Allan H
>
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Re: Mind's Eye mistaken origins

There seems to be an impenetrable veil crafted by identity that makes us
weave a tale of vitality and protects from a colder harshness, it seems
against the suffocation of invisibility. I used to think adults were a
more dangerous variety of children and would now like to look back and
see people being people and have things fall into place. I am terrified
of the spotlight but love to scout, my myth is more favorable than the
practice it derives from like many others perhaps. I enjoy kindness but
often have to temper a strong contempt for the society I know and see,
honesty in that regard would've been the end of a young story, it would
destroy the present as well, though circumstances seem almost opposite.
Funny. Old habits and lessons are hard to overcome, I know of truth as a
trial that demands courage without an ounce of aesthetic, everything
comes from the bottom-up, but I am missing the other half of the story
(or my story). That half involves artificial boundaries arising from
identity, myth and practice (for me). It is odd to see and know but be
barred from belief.

Moving on.. :) I get the impression that what we see in dishonesty and
usury is a suspension of cultural progress, reflected in individual
maturity as an inability to mentally overcome those challenges. Those in
power have everything to gain whether in personal, professional or
governance by rewards for callous and sometimes sociopathic
manipulations. Part of the myth that perpetuates this seems to be the
prestige of success, as if it were a character virtue. On practical
grounds I agree that we need to promote and sometimes tolerate those who
are capable and willing to get the job done but very little of this is
in the public discourse, shining the light into one area moves the
problem, cockroaches are likely a fitting image in some cases. I have
heard that Germans have a similar work ethic to Americans Gabby, I
wonder if your prisons are as full. Justice resides in the eyes and
memory alone, I think.

On 12/17/2013 10:57 AM, Gabby wrote:
> Only a fool would want to take a picture of transparency and then
> render it with the right movie maker software to become a star.
>
> Am Sonntag, 15. Dezember 2013 21:44:34 UTC+1 schrieb archytas:
>
> Origin blurrs and is forever deferred. Our memories are
> inventive, future mapping, capable of seeing virtual, coloured
> worlds of the 'beige' universe and outcomes where there will be no
> evidence only narratives. Politicians and other crooks organise
> for there only to be narrative recall. We could organise now for
> evidence to be prioritised more. This remains tough where
> declaring the evidence is to disclose it to the enemy as in our
> war situations, but one can see the principle in such as the
> Duggan Inquest. You can google the 12 weeks of transcripts only
> to discover 5 seconds of good CCTV would tell you more than many
> days of testimony and deliberation. I think we could establish
> more 'evidence miracles' across society. Of course, Allan and I
> would not carry cameras on a quest for the soul.
>
> On Sunday, 15 December 2013 11:20:06 UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:
>
> Both Bush and Blair wanted to be the glorious war time
> leader.. the problem there is you can not start the war.. as
> for their making peace with god.. well I am not them,, As for
> the notion of the soul is not mine,, It oddly is a concept
> that appears to flow through all beliefs from very beginning
> of man through our time.. the soul is a commonality of
> mankind.. an idea that I have been exploring unfortunately
> you have been dragged along with me on this journey , it is
> nice to explore an idea that is true and has value.. one of
> those rare gem stones..
>
> Politicians the old definition for a politician was a
> professional liar.. so you can expect no more.. all one can
> do is realize what their profession really is. In a period of
> my life to do my job I had to become a professional liar.. I
> Needed to become super good guy and super bad guy at the same
> moment.. not an healthy emotional place to be in and I did
> pay a heavy price.. Difference is I knew the truth of who I
> really was and so did my colleges that I worked with.. we
> knew what was lies.. and that allows one to keep a healthy
> orientation toward truth,, I could tell you anything to the
> point off passing any lie detector test. What I could not due
> is lie to myself.. I had to live in reality no how bad it
> really was.. strangely knowing and searching for truth leads
> to spirituality.. not churchianity where most people end up..
>
> The ultimate search is for our origins.. in my case I find my
> origin is in my Soul.. for me it is not a mistaken origin.
>
> Matrix -- Soul rules the body
> ( -- Do No Harm
> )
> [_D Allan H
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
> To: mind...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 2:33 AM
> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye mistaken origins
>
> I have a lot of time fro what Andrew and Pol say on this. I
> don't approve of lying, though can see some circumstances when
> one must. Development of virtue on an internal basis allows
> the dreadful state of what passes for politics and an
> increasingly corrupt academy and media. I don't mean any
> attack on Allan's notion of soul here, or religious
> development that is genuinely universal, or philosophy in
> terms of 'unbewitching language'. It's that point at with the
> likes of Blair and Bush lay claim to have made peace with god
> when they are concealing their dirty hands. At times in the
> past truth was no concern, only who was speaking and I feel we
> are now stuck with an elite doing exactly this. We have whole
> disciplines like economics and most business teaching that
> have no basis in truth or free enquiry. I believe this is
> part of deep-rooted elitism that starts with the classics,
> tragedy and virtue ethics that is little more than
> rationalisation. The free table was part of this, so even
> communism has root in slavery. amongst other things this has
> left us with an education system focused on material most
> can't really get into.
>
> Here I can say 'All British are liars. I am British' sure
> that all this means concerns cracking a few grins. In
> philosophy the second proposition is counterexample to the
> first. Both cannot be true in a certain view of language
> logic, but we are aware of the ironic meaning. I never took
> much to 'all swans are white, therefore there are no black
> swans'. There turned out to be some in Australia, but in more
> modern language the clue is they have black pigmentation round
> the eyes and could genetically manipulate that in the main
> body feathers. There is a long history from Socrates' doxa,
> through Bacon's Idols, Descartes' radical doubt, Nietzsche's
> more radical doubt, Wittgenstein's biological-iconic view of
> language to more recent work (Dan Sperber) that we have
> argument wrong. I want to doubt without leaving us in an
> anything goes morality or relying on heroes of argument like
> politicians taking us into wars we don't want.
>
> On Saturday, 14 December 2013 20:55:22 UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:
>
> I ended up putting a lot of time into philosophy. In
> starting it was not by choice and did not expect my life
> to become an obsession.
>
> I have been very blessed with people who have the ability
> to sift through the dross and then share their precious
> gems with me.
>
> Thank You you are a treasure.
>
> Matrix : Soul controls mind.
> ( : Do No Harm
> [_D Allan H
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
> To: mind...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 7:24 PM
> Subject: Mind's Eye mistaken origins
>
> I sunk a lot of costs in philosophy. The stuff was around
> at university and research was supposed to require
> epistemology. Some of the experience was enjoyable. It
> didn't shake convictions I learned in science or as a
> detective. Roughly put there is evidence and the rest is
> piss and wind. Evidence relies on audiences capable of
> understanding and these are rare. I even bought a book
> called 'Audiences' to learn more, but like most academic
> books and papers, it disappointed. You have to read an
> awful lot of dross to find the few gems. Whilst doing
> this you can be suckered , even seduced by arguments that
> convince that you are on a righteous path to truth. The
> Greeks, probably copying and developing more eastern work,
> pondered a lot on virtue ethics, living in a slave economy
> and seemingly unaware the edifice built was ideal for
> cheats who could feign integrity; a system ideal for jerks
> living off the labour of others and worse.
>
> It's tough being honest, even to the extent one of the
> biggest lies we are told is that honesty is the best
> policy. Most systems I've experienced are designed to
> prevent honesty. We use manners, etiquette and due
> process instead. Evidence is replaced by human recall of
> what it was. We have chronic problems because of this.
> Most of us are lousy eye-witnesses. I want to argue we
> are trapped in Greek origins, the mentality of an elite
> who routinely allowed and justified slavery.
>
> Anyone any ideas?
> --
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