The problem with liberal justice is that the punishment does not fit
the crime. I'm in favor of capital punishment- in fact, you'd be
shocked at what I think those six rats in Delhi deserve- how about the
olde English drawn and quartered? Many criminals look on jail time as
free room and board and it is a very profitable enterprise. Happily
some of these murderers have the decency to kill themselves often
enough. What about the victims? And what about our youth that are
getting killed or maimed in the pest holes of the world???
On Dec 28, 10:24 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There's something amiss with talking up gun control and yet
> subsidising manufacture. But this is typical of the area of the
> debate. The same people who sing from the free trade hymn sheet pay
> the subsidies. Of course, putting a cop in every school (which is a
> minimum of two with rotation) is an expense on every business. I
> don't know what the answers are. Over the years I've found the same
> stilted factionalism from issues like this to foreign policy or aid to
> third world situations. When argument doesn't work I favour looking
> at practical examples (Australia in this case). Almost needless to
> say opinion is divided, though 85% of Aussies now support the new laws
> and they haven't had a mass killing spree since the reforms (1996).
> This suggests it could be worth a try, but frankly I don't have the
> facts. Others say neither Australia or the UK are any safer as a
> result of our legislation. Some even have it Newtown is a hoax
> conspiracy to disarm Americans to ease a police state into being.
>
> We lack informed analysis generally. In some areas, like television
> economics and university opportunities for our kids, I know enough to
> know we are being lied to. In others I'm just left wondering why
> expert opinion just seems lacking. I haven't even seen a sensible
> presentation of global warming issues. In place of facts we get
> factional twits rationalising everything to daft ideologies as though
> this is balanced reporting.
>
> On 28 Dec, 20:29, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I actually do understand Molly,,, it is being caught between a rock
> > and a hard spot,, due to the large amount of wackos out there with
> > excessive amounts of weapons there is probably little choice left..
> > with all the fear mongering that is showing up on television .. I
> > am a us citizen living abroad.. and they are scaring the hell out of
> > me..
>
> > that is probably the greatest reason for taxation of each fire arm
> > annually it will allow some actual and realistic control and locate
> > some of the more sick gun maniacs
> > Allan
>
> > On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 7:02 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I much prefer the answer of the institution having armed security on
> > > staff (we will all pay with increased costs at some point) then
> > > allowing private citizens to carry weapons into the facilities. There
> > > are places that need to be zones that do not apply to right to carry
> > > laws, schools, hospitals, stadiums etc. I imagine that the percentage
> > > of US schools having armed security will go up next year from the
> > > current 30% in response. The problem of wacko access to guns is the
> > > sensitive area, where laws restricting folks with a history of mental
> > > illness might prevent those who need it from getting treatment (or
> > > treatment for children) because they are afraid of government
> > > scrutiny.
>
> > > On Dec 28, 12:10 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> I know defense contracting is very big manufacturing and entire
> > >> regions depend on it ..Then you come up against minor things that the
> > >> christian foundation is built on... there is one law dating back to
> > >> ancient times simply put Is "Thou shall not commit murder." Just a
> > >> small problem spiritually ... how can you justify the 200,000 people
> > >> murdered by american weapons and bombs dropped recently in Iraq.. were
> > >> american made..
>
> > >> The problem is not in the weapons it lies in balance .. fortunately
> > >> each soul is responsible only for its own actions and decisions.. I
> > >> have trouble justifying any war or the intentional taking of another
> > >> life much less thousands of them..
>
> > >> I see NRA wants to put one armed policeman in each school is the NRA
> > >> paying for this solution... and I can predict it will not work simply
> > >> because it has not worked in the passed .. their next solution will
> > >> be prison camps not seats of learning.
>
> > >> Sorry somethings just piss me off..
> > >> Allan
>
> > >> On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> > Currently in the US there is a much needed resurgence in manufacturing that
> > >> > all states are subsidizing to get their jobs numbers up. this is no
> > >> > different than any other type of manufacturing subsidy, I suspect, although
> > >> > the use of the product is a sensitive issue. Here in Michigan, defense
> > >> > manufacturing is one of the largest sectors, providing a good portion of the
> > >> > jobs in the southeastern area. Many would argue that with the world economy
> > >> > teetering, conditions to manufacturing incentives would be problematic and
> > >> > stifle job growth. State tax breaks for movie production companies has come
> > >> > under scrutiny lately, as they were extended to boost local economies when
> > >> > production houses were build and the movies were shot locally.
>
> > >> > Can't say that I disagree with the gun maker tax credit opinion above, but
> > >> > don't you think they would just move their manufacturing to say - China?
>
> > >> > It is a complicated issue, that's for sure. I marvel at our ability to
> > >> > become distracted with ancillary issues. Are manufacturing tax credits
> > >> > really the reason wackos wipe out children?
>
> > >> > On Thursday, December 27, 2012 7:59:55 PM UTC-5, archytas wrote:
>
> > >> >> Gun production is state funded. Smith & Wesson, one of the largest
> > >> >> gun makers in the country, is headquartered in Springfield, MA.
> > >> >> According to the company's 2012 annual investment report to the SEC
> > >> >> (10-k), Smith & Wesson received a large multi-million dollar tax
> > >> >> credit from the state that started in 2010 and will continue until
> > >> >> 2017. This tax credit, of $6.0 million, brought a maximum of 225 jobs
> > >> >> to the state, or roughly twenty seven thousand dollars of taxpayer
> > >> >> money per job, and was awarded by an obscure committee called "the
> > >> >> Massachusetts Economic Assistance Coordinating Council." That amount
> > >> >> works out to a little less than $1 per person in Massachusetts, money
> > >> >> that goes straight to Smith & Wesson's bottom line. Most Massachusetts
> > >> >> residents don't know their legislators and Governor have donated a
> > >> >> dollar in their name to Smith & Wesson through job creation tax
> > >> >> credits. Regardless of their views on gun control, I'm guessing
> > >> >> Massachusetts taxpayers probably don't favor subsidization of the
> > >> >> industry at such a rich rate.
>
> > >> >> At the same time as Smith & Wesson receives such bounty from the
> > >> >> state, the gunmaker has given over $1 million to the National Rifle
> > >> >> Association (NRA), the biggest lobbying group for guns. This means
> > >> >> that the state of Massachusetts, while considering further regulations
> > >> >> on gun purchases, is at the same time indirectly funding the gun
> > >> >> lobby. To actually reduce the number of guns on the streets, Linsky,
> > >> >> and many of our state and Federal officials, could start by ending the
> > >> >> subsidization of gun makers through tax credits and security funds.
> > >> >> New Hampshire lost the jobs 'created' in MA.
>
> > >> >> On 25 Dec, 22:31, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >> > I haven't got a figure on the externalities of gun ownership - but car
> > >> >> > ownership was recently estimated to cost each individual in the UK
> > >> >> > £850 a year - £48 billion. About £38 billion is generated in taxes.
> > >> >> > The underlying issue may well be that the way we let cost drive
> > >> >> > efficiency generally is probably wrong now and we need a better
> > >> >> > resource utilisation model. A big question is whether we trust our
> > >> >> > police and other authorities to keep us safe. Here, people who have
> > >> >> > not needed dealings with the authorities in such circumstances feel
> > >> >> > content - those who have had dealings are generally worried they don't
> > >> >> > do a good job. Holding guns may give us a false sense of security in
> > >> >> > terms of thinking we can look after ourselves when the authorities
> > >> >> > can't. We may not really understand what the threat is.
>
> > >> >> > I don't know what the full debate on gun ownership is. I can think of
> > >> >> > an economic analogy - there is a big claim at the moment that we are
> > >> >> > bankrupting our children through government debt. This isn't true,
> > >> >> > though one can make the argument sound convincing by leaving most of
> > >> >> > what matters out of it. We are stuck in something similar on gun
> > >> >> > control.
>
> > >> >> > At the heart of these problems is reliable threat identification and
> > >> >> > the ability to deal with it with appropriate resources. We might
> > >> >> > start by looking at what we know about sociopaths - the reality is
> > >> >> > almost completely at odds with reporting. My guess this is only the
> > >> >> > first thing on a list of 20 plus. The next might be why so many of us
> > >> >> > are content with 'attitude' rather than the facts that might bring
> > >> >> > resolution.
>
> > >> >> > On 25 Dec, 11:58, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >> >> > > It is possible that everyone here is right, and we don't have all the
> > >> >> > > details of the problem to examine. I saw an article that listed all
> > >> >> > > of the
> > >> >> > > spontaneous mass murderers in the last decade including school
> > >> >> > > massacres.
> > >> >> > > The list consisted of the place of event, name of shooter, and
> > >> >> > > medication
> > >> >> > > (for behavior modification) he was on at the time.
>
> > >> >> > > The US medical model, especially for mental health, is still in the
> > >> >> > > dark
> > >> >> > > ages. We no longer blood or electro-shock let for every condition,
> > >> >> > > but we
>
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
--
Have we been insulted or complimented?
On Dec 28, 3:25 pm, Gabby <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I didn't get any books for Christmas, but Amazon and Douglas gift vouchers.
> That's great! I'll be able to use them when I need something.
>
> I like reading here. No author could have come up with such an anarchic
> plot, ghostly setting and high amount of under-performers and be able to
> sell it as a product. :)
>
> I wouldn't be able to sign this thievery is the root of all evil theory.
> The possessive 'have' causes wanted and unwanted effects, that's right
> though. Control comes into play. The Golden Calf never to become an
> ordinary cow or bull.
>
> Put back perspective in context and try again, I say.
>
> Am Freitag, 28. Dezember 2012 17:34:01 UTC+1 schrieb archytas:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I finally have my own copy of David Graeber's 'Debt: the first 5000
> > years', Hann and Hart's 'Economic Anthropology' and David Orell's
> > 'Economyths' - I've been dip[ping in and already know they don't offer
> > much I don't know or how to frame economics problems so enough of us
> > could understand them. It's good to know others, like me, think
> > thievery is the root and that the science alleged to be involved is
> > counterfeit stuff from the 19th century. Graeber finishes by saying
> > we should have a debt jubilee and start again (after historical
> > analysis). I'll get through the books by posting them in the toilet
> > and bathroom as relief from the day job. My guess is we are really as
> > stuck in a confrontation with power as Burmese peasants stuck with a
> > Chinese copper mine on their land. Graeber, an anarchist, sounds
> > rather like Molly or Gabby or Allan in hoping love might usurp self-
> > interest. I don't drink that soup for the soul! I rather see such
> > condition as dessert after we grind out a materialist solution after
> > we realise the rich have been having us on a butty.
>
> > On 28 Dec, 12:34, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Interesting, achy, my husband and I are in the same boat. I keep going
> > > back to the classics on my shelf and the rare books yet uncovered that I
> > > can find for a song at the internet bookseller. Mostly, we surf the web
> > > for shreds of what is new in the research and come up short, as this is
> > > passed on at a need to know basis and posted on the Internet after the
> > > party or at the risk of indiscretion. Reading has been more interesting
> > > during other phases of life for me.
>
> > > On Thursday, December 27, 2012 7:08:50 PM UTC-5, archytas wrote:
>
> > > > I do something similar to Molly. Reading is largely about trying to
> > > > fly with ideas for me, different to the day-to-day. I suspect most
> > > > people in here would like anyone who wants to to be able to access
> > > > universities. I'd do this by changing what the university is. What
> > > > we have actually been doing seems to be madness. We are graduating
> > > > half our population without increasing 'working smarter' jobs or even
> > > > considering whether this is really possible - the probability is we
> > > > are devaluing graduate advantage just as we force kids into large debt
> > > > to get the qualifications. Finance, traditionally an unwanted cost
> > > > against production and sales, now leeches massive amounts from
> > > > production we used to retain as wages and liquid capital amongst our
> > > > 50% least well off (this was about 20% of GDP when I left school ans
> > > > is down to less than 1%). What I find in reading is consistent
> > > > distraction from what really matters. There isn't much difference
> > > > between watch mainstream news, whatever entertainment is on offer and
> > > > the academic vanity publishing. It feels as though there is nothing
> > > > to read or watch.
>
> > > > On 27 Dec, 23:19, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > I don't agree on the body language or behavioural cues rigs - all
> > the
> > > > > tests done show we are about as reliable as the toss of a coin. The
> > > > > people who are best at making us think we can read them are
> > > > > psychopaths - three times more likely to secure parole from
> > 'experts'.
>
> > > > > On 27 Dec, 09:15, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Yes the rich have more opportunities and exposure to make more
> > > > > > wealth.. why would you say that is Rigsy?? Why are not these
> > > > > > opportunities and exposure created for the poor? .. they are the
> > ones
> > > > > > that need it. or could it be part of the perks of worshiping at
> > the
> > > > > > feet of the golden calf??
> > > > > > Allan
>
> > > > > > On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 2:49 AM, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > It may be the rich have more opportunities and exposure, Allan.
> > > > Human
> > > > > > > nature is human nature. Also, celebrity creates another kind of
> > > > > > > challenge as the artist types gain fame and fortune- often to
> > laugh
> > > > at
> > > > > > > their own popularity and adulation of the public and critics-
> > > > Picasso
> > > > > > > comes to mind, for instance- have a savage quote of his around
> > here
> > > > > > > somewhere.
>
> > > > > > > On Dec 25, 8:04 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >> Oddly I think you have a better chance for good ethics among
> > the
> > > > poor
> > > > > > >> over the rich,
> > > > > > >> Allan
>
> > > > > > >> On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >> > I wonder if the researchers took into account that a truly
> > > > ethical person
> > > > > > >> > would not participate in the kind of rubbish that presents
> > > > predictable
> > > > > > >> > limited outcomes as fact. There may, indeed, be a
> > correlation
> > > > between
> > > > > > >> > creativity and ethics, but I suspect it is more inclusive and
> > > > requires
> > > > > > >> > examination without the limits designed to define results. I
> > keep
> > > > going back
> > > > > > >> > to the model of spiral dynamics, one that allows and
> > understands
> > > > that we all
> > > > > > >> > move up and down and between memes during our lives given the
> > > > circumstances
> > > > > > >> > of our experience. Someone who does not have enough money
> > for
> > > > food may
> > > > > > >> > cheat in this experiment more than someone who has never
> > known
> > > > financial
> > > > > > >> > stress or hunger. Here is a pretty good explanation of the
> > > > original Graves
> > > > > > >> > material, although I've seen better, its the best I could
> > find
> > > > online this
> > > > > > >> > morning.
> > > >http://www.edumar.cl/documentos/SD_version_for_constellation5.pdf
>
> > > > > > >> > On Monday, December 24, 2012 5:58:21 PM UTC-5, archytas
> > wrote:
>
> > > > > > >> >> A free paper with the ideas is at
> > > > > > >> >>http://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Publication%20Files/11-064.pdf
> > > > > > >> >> I was interested because I find professional ethics and
> > > > religious
> > > > > > >> >> morality collapse under circumstances of self-interest and
> > > > become
> > > > > > >> >> rationalisation. WE need creative solutions - but there is
> > a
> > > > dark
> > > > > > >> >> side to creativity.
>
> > > > > > >> >> On 24 Dec, 22:03, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >> >> > "The (Honest) Truth About Dishonesty: How We Lie to
> > Everyone
> > > > —
> > > > > > >> >> > Especially Ourselves" by Dan Ariely asks a seemingly
> > simple
> > > > question —
> > > > > > >> >> > "is dishonesty largely restricted to a few bad apples, or
> > is
> > > > it a more
> > > > > > >> >> > widespread problem?" — and goes on to reveal the
> > surprising,
> > > > > > >> >> > illuminating, often unsettling truths that underpin the
> > > > uncomfortable
> > > > > > >> >> > answer. Like cruelty, dishonesty turns out to be a
> > remarkably
> > > > > > >> >> > prevalent phenomenon better explained by circumstances and
> > > > cognitive
> > > > > > >> >> > processes than by concepts like character.
>
> > > > > > >> >> > Work like this is challenging traditional economics - the
> > > > genre is
> > > > > > >> >> > 'behavioural economics'. My own take on this book and a
> > lot
> > > > of work
> > > > > > >> >> > from brain science and history is that we are at a tipping
> > > > point in
> > > > > > >> >> > respect of the possibility of a human science. I'd like
> > to
> > > > see a
> > > > > > >> >> > broader literature take up this challenge beyond current
> > > > drivel on
> > > > > > >> >> > black and white hats.
>
> > > > > > >> >> > So what are you guys reading?
>
> > > > > > >> > --
>
> > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > >> (
> > > > > > >> )
> > > > > > >> |_D Allan
>
> > > > > > >> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> > > > > > >> Of course I talk to myself,
> > > > > > >> Sometimes I need expert advice..- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > --
>
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > (
> > > > > > )
> > > > > > |_D Allan
>
> > > > > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> > > > > > Of course I talk to myself,
> > > > > > Sometimes I need expert advice..- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
--
On Dec 28, 3:25 pm, Gabby <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I didn't get any books for Christmas, but Amazon and Douglas gift vouchers.
> That's great! I'll be able to use them when I need something.
>
> I like reading here. No author could have come up with such an anarchic
> plot, ghostly setting and high amount of under-performers and be able to
> sell it as a product. :)
>
> I wouldn't be able to sign this thievery is the root of all evil theory.
> The possessive 'have' causes wanted and unwanted effects, that's right
> though. Control comes into play. The Golden Calf never to become an
> ordinary cow or bull.
>
> Put back perspective in context and try again, I say.
>
> Am Freitag, 28. Dezember 2012 17:34:01 UTC+1 schrieb archytas:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I finally have my own copy of David Graeber's 'Debt: the first 5000
> > years', Hann and Hart's 'Economic Anthropology' and David Orell's
> > 'Economyths' - I've been dip[ping in and already know they don't offer
> > much I don't know or how to frame economics problems so enough of us
> > could understand them. It's good to know others, like me, think
> > thievery is the root and that the science alleged to be involved is
> > counterfeit stuff from the 19th century. Graeber finishes by saying
> > we should have a debt jubilee and start again (after historical
> > analysis). I'll get through the books by posting them in the toilet
> > and bathroom as relief from the day job. My guess is we are really as
> > stuck in a confrontation with power as Burmese peasants stuck with a
> > Chinese copper mine on their land. Graeber, an anarchist, sounds
> > rather like Molly or Gabby or Allan in hoping love might usurp self-
> > interest. I don't drink that soup for the soul! I rather see such
> > condition as dessert after we grind out a materialist solution after
> > we realise the rich have been having us on a butty.
>
> > On 28 Dec, 12:34, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Interesting, achy, my husband and I are in the same boat. I keep going
> > > back to the classics on my shelf and the rare books yet uncovered that I
> > > can find for a song at the internet bookseller. Mostly, we surf the web
> > > for shreds of what is new in the research and come up short, as this is
> > > passed on at a need to know basis and posted on the Internet after the
> > > party or at the risk of indiscretion. Reading has been more interesting
> > > during other phases of life for me.
>
> > > On Thursday, December 27, 2012 7:08:50 PM UTC-5, archytas wrote:
>
> > > > I do something similar to Molly. Reading is largely about trying to
> > > > fly with ideas for me, different to the day-to-day. I suspect most
> > > > people in here would like anyone who wants to to be able to access
> > > > universities. I'd do this by changing what the university is. What
> > > > we have actually been doing seems to be madness. We are graduating
> > > > half our population without increasing 'working smarter' jobs or even
> > > > considering whether this is really possible - the probability is we
> > > > are devaluing graduate advantage just as we force kids into large debt
> > > > to get the qualifications. Finance, traditionally an unwanted cost
> > > > against production and sales, now leeches massive amounts from
> > > > production we used to retain as wages and liquid capital amongst our
> > > > 50% least well off (this was about 20% of GDP when I left school ans
> > > > is down to less than 1%). What I find in reading is consistent
> > > > distraction from what really matters. There isn't much difference
> > > > between watch mainstream news, whatever entertainment is on offer and
> > > > the academic vanity publishing. It feels as though there is nothing
> > > > to read or watch.
>
> > > > On 27 Dec, 23:19, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > I don't agree on the body language or behavioural cues rigs - all
> > the
> > > > > tests done show we are about as reliable as the toss of a coin. The
> > > > > people who are best at making us think we can read them are
> > > > > psychopaths - three times more likely to secure parole from
> > 'experts'.
>
> > > > > On 27 Dec, 09:15, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Yes the rich have more opportunities and exposure to make more
> > > > > > wealth.. why would you say that is Rigsy?? Why are not these
> > > > > > opportunities and exposure created for the poor? .. they are the
> > ones
> > > > > > that need it. or could it be part of the perks of worshiping at
> > the
> > > > > > feet of the golden calf??
> > > > > > Allan
>
> > > > > > On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 2:49 AM, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > It may be the rich have more opportunities and exposure, Allan.
> > > > Human
> > > > > > > nature is human nature. Also, celebrity creates another kind of
> > > > > > > challenge as the artist types gain fame and fortune- often to
> > laugh
> > > > at
> > > > > > > their own popularity and adulation of the public and critics-
> > > > Picasso
> > > > > > > comes to mind, for instance- have a savage quote of his around
> > here
> > > > > > > somewhere.
>
> > > > > > > On Dec 25, 8:04 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >> Oddly I think you have a better chance for good ethics among
> > the
> > > > poor
> > > > > > >> over the rich,
> > > > > > >> Allan
>
> > > > > > >> On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >> > I wonder if the researchers took into account that a truly
> > > > ethical person
> > > > > > >> > would not participate in the kind of rubbish that presents
> > > > predictable
> > > > > > >> > limited outcomes as fact. There may, indeed, be a
> > correlation
> > > > between
> > > > > > >> > creativity and ethics, but I suspect it is more inclusive and
> > > > requires
> > > > > > >> > examination without the limits designed to define results. I
> > keep
> > > > going back
> > > > > > >> > to the model of spiral dynamics, one that allows and
> > understands
> > > > that we all
> > > > > > >> > move up and down and between memes during our lives given the
> > > > circumstances
> > > > > > >> > of our experience. Someone who does not have enough money
> > for
> > > > food may
> > > > > > >> > cheat in this experiment more than someone who has never
> > known
> > > > financial
> > > > > > >> > stress or hunger. Here is a pretty good explanation of the
> > > > original Graves
> > > > > > >> > material, although I've seen better, its the best I could
> > find
> > > > online this
> > > > > > >> > morning.
> > > >http://www.edumar.cl/documentos/SD_version_for_constellation5.pdf
>
> > > > > > >> > On Monday, December 24, 2012 5:58:21 PM UTC-5, archytas
> > wrote:
>
> > > > > > >> >> A free paper with the ideas is at
> > > > > > >> >>http://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Publication%20Files/11-064.pdf
> > > > > > >> >> I was interested because I find professional ethics and
> > > > religious
> > > > > > >> >> morality collapse under circumstances of self-interest and
> > > > become
> > > > > > >> >> rationalisation. WE need creative solutions - but there is
> > a
> > > > dark
> > > > > > >> >> side to creativity.
>
> > > > > > >> >> On 24 Dec, 22:03, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >> >> > "The (Honest) Truth About Dishonesty: How We Lie to
> > Everyone
> > > > —
> > > > > > >> >> > Especially Ourselves" by Dan Ariely asks a seemingly
> > simple
> > > > question —
> > > > > > >> >> > "is dishonesty largely restricted to a few bad apples, or
> > is
> > > > it a more
> > > > > > >> >> > widespread problem?" — and goes on to reveal the
> > surprising,
> > > > > > >> >> > illuminating, often unsettling truths that underpin the
> > > > uncomfortable
> > > > > > >> >> > answer. Like cruelty, dishonesty turns out to be a
> > remarkably
> > > > > > >> >> > prevalent phenomenon better explained by circumstances and
> > > > cognitive
> > > > > > >> >> > processes than by concepts like character.
>
> > > > > > >> >> > Work like this is challenging traditional economics - the
> > > > genre is
> > > > > > >> >> > 'behavioural economics'. My own take on this book and a
> > lot
> > > > of work
> > > > > > >> >> > from brain science and history is that we are at a tipping
> > > > point in
> > > > > > >> >> > respect of the possibility of a human science. I'd like
> > to
> > > > see a
> > > > > > >> >> > broader literature take up this challenge beyond current
> > > > drivel on
> > > > > > >> >> > black and white hats.
>
> > > > > > >> >> > So what are you guys reading?
>
> > > > > > >> > --
>
> > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > >> (
> > > > > > >> )
> > > > > > >> |_D Allan
>
> > > > > > >> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> > > > > > >> Of course I talk to myself,
> > > > > > >> Sometimes I need expert advice..- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > --
>
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > (
> > > > > > )
> > > > > > |_D Allan
>
> > > > > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> > > > > > Of course I talk to myself,
> > > > > > Sometimes I need expert advice..- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
--
We're still the envy of the world, Allan. Why?
On Dec 28, 2:44 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> good and generous rich?? who are those?? How come are there so many
> people are living in povety in the US the severe lack of employment
> excessive cost in health insurance?? a republican congress that only
> wants to protect the rich..
>
> you say good and generous rich.. i know some Rigsy but they are not
> in the majority.
> Allan
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 7:14 PM, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The rich also have a more complicated life to trip up and the media
> > pays them more attention than the daily crime reports of rather
> > anonymous criminals. The poor and uneducated may be perfectly
> > comfortable in their cultural traps. Does one need higher standards to
> > be the "good"/generous rich? Who will fund charity and taxes, my dear?
>
> > On Dec 27, 3:15 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Yes the rich have more opportunities and exposure to make more
> >> wealth.. why would you say that is Rigsy?? Why are not these
> >> opportunities and exposure created for the poor? .. they are the ones
> >> that need it. or could it be part of the perks of worshiping at the
> >> feet of the golden calf??
> >> Allan
>
> >> On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 2:49 AM, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > It may be the rich have more opportunities and exposure, Allan. Human
> >> > nature is human nature. Also, celebrity creates another kind of
> >> > challenge as the artist types gain fame and fortune- often to laugh at
> >> > their own popularity and adulation of the public and critics- Picasso
> >> > comes to mind, for instance- have a savage quote of his around here
> >> > somewhere.
>
> >> > On Dec 25, 8:04 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> Oddly I think you have a better chance for good ethics among the poor
> >> >> over the rich,
> >> >> Allan
>
> >> >> On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > I wonder if the researchers took into account that a truly ethical person
> >> >> > would not participate in the kind of rubbish that presents predictable
> >> >> > limited outcomes as fact. There may, indeed, be a correlation between
> >> >> > creativity and ethics, but I suspect it is more inclusive and requires
> >> >> > examination without the limits designed to define results. I keep going back
> >> >> > to the model of spiral dynamics, one that allows and understands that we all
> >> >> > move up and down and between memes during our lives given the circumstances
> >> >> > of our experience. Someone who does not have enough money for food may
> >> >> > cheat in this experiment more than someone who has never known financial
> >> >> > stress or hunger. Here is a pretty good explanation of the original Graves
> >> >> > material, although I've seen better, its the best I could find online this
> >> >> > morning.http://www.edumar.cl/documentos/SD_version_for_constellation5.pdf
>
> >> >> > On Monday, December 24, 2012 5:58:21 PM UTC-5, archytas wrote:
>
> >> >> >> A free paper with the ideas is at
> >> >> >>http://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Publication%20Files/11-064.pdf
> >> >> >> I was interested because I find professional ethics and religious
> >> >> >> morality collapse under circumstances of self-interest and become
> >> >> >> rationalisation. WE need creative solutions - but there is a dark
> >> >> >> side to creativity.
>
> >> >> >> On 24 Dec, 22:03, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> > "The (Honest) Truth About Dishonesty: How We Lie to Everyone —
> >> >> >> > Especially Ourselves" by Dan Ariely asks a seemingly simple question —
> >> >> >> > "is dishonesty largely restricted to a few bad apples, or is it a more
> >> >> >> > widespread problem?" — and goes on to reveal the surprising,
> >> >> >> > illuminating, often unsettling truths that underpin the uncomfortable
> >> >> >> > answer. Like cruelty, dishonesty turns out to be a remarkably
> >> >> >> > prevalent phenomenon better explained by circumstances and cognitive
> >> >> >> > processes than by concepts like character.
>
> >> >> >> > Work like this is challenging traditional economics - the genre is
> >> >> >> > 'behavioural economics'. My own take on this book and a lot of work
> >> >> >> > from brain science and history is that we are at a tipping point in
> >> >> >> > respect of the possibility of a human science. I'd like to see a
> >> >> >> > broader literature take up this challenge beyond current drivel on
> >> >> >> > black and white hats.
>
> >> >> >> > So what are you guys reading?
>
> >> >> > --
>
> >> >> --
> >> >> (
> >> >> )
> >> >> |_D Allan
>
> >> >> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> >> >> Of course I talk to myself,
> >> >> Sometimes I need expert advice..- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> >> > --
>
> >> --
> >> (
> >> )
> >> |_D Allan
>
> >> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> >> Of course I talk to myself,
> >> Sometimes I need expert advice..- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > --
>
> --
> (
> )
> |_D Allan
>
> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> Of course I talk to myself,
> Sometimes I need expert advice..- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
--
On Dec 28, 2:44 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> good and generous rich?? who are those?? How come are there so many
> people are living in povety in the US the severe lack of employment
> excessive cost in health insurance?? a republican congress that only
> wants to protect the rich..
>
> you say good and generous rich.. i know some Rigsy but they are not
> in the majority.
> Allan
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 7:14 PM, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The rich also have a more complicated life to trip up and the media
> > pays them more attention than the daily crime reports of rather
> > anonymous criminals. The poor and uneducated may be perfectly
> > comfortable in their cultural traps. Does one need higher standards to
> > be the "good"/generous rich? Who will fund charity and taxes, my dear?
>
> > On Dec 27, 3:15 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Yes the rich have more opportunities and exposure to make more
> >> wealth.. why would you say that is Rigsy?? Why are not these
> >> opportunities and exposure created for the poor? .. they are the ones
> >> that need it. or could it be part of the perks of worshiping at the
> >> feet of the golden calf??
> >> Allan
>
> >> On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 2:49 AM, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > It may be the rich have more opportunities and exposure, Allan. Human
> >> > nature is human nature. Also, celebrity creates another kind of
> >> > challenge as the artist types gain fame and fortune- often to laugh at
> >> > their own popularity and adulation of the public and critics- Picasso
> >> > comes to mind, for instance- have a savage quote of his around here
> >> > somewhere.
>
> >> > On Dec 25, 8:04 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> Oddly I think you have a better chance for good ethics among the poor
> >> >> over the rich,
> >> >> Allan
>
> >> >> On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > I wonder if the researchers took into account that a truly ethical person
> >> >> > would not participate in the kind of rubbish that presents predictable
> >> >> > limited outcomes as fact. There may, indeed, be a correlation between
> >> >> > creativity and ethics, but I suspect it is more inclusive and requires
> >> >> > examination without the limits designed to define results. I keep going back
> >> >> > to the model of spiral dynamics, one that allows and understands that we all
> >> >> > move up and down and between memes during our lives given the circumstances
> >> >> > of our experience. Someone who does not have enough money for food may
> >> >> > cheat in this experiment more than someone who has never known financial
> >> >> > stress or hunger. Here is a pretty good explanation of the original Graves
> >> >> > material, although I've seen better, its the best I could find online this
> >> >> > morning.http://www.edumar.cl/documentos/SD_version_for_constellation5.pdf
>
> >> >> > On Monday, December 24, 2012 5:58:21 PM UTC-5, archytas wrote:
>
> >> >> >> A free paper with the ideas is at
> >> >> >>http://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Publication%20Files/11-064.pdf
> >> >> >> I was interested because I find professional ethics and religious
> >> >> >> morality collapse under circumstances of self-interest and become
> >> >> >> rationalisation. WE need creative solutions - but there is a dark
> >> >> >> side to creativity.
>
> >> >> >> On 24 Dec, 22:03, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> > "The (Honest) Truth About Dishonesty: How We Lie to Everyone —
> >> >> >> > Especially Ourselves" by Dan Ariely asks a seemingly simple question —
> >> >> >> > "is dishonesty largely restricted to a few bad apples, or is it a more
> >> >> >> > widespread problem?" — and goes on to reveal the surprising,
> >> >> >> > illuminating, often unsettling truths that underpin the uncomfortable
> >> >> >> > answer. Like cruelty, dishonesty turns out to be a remarkably
> >> >> >> > prevalent phenomenon better explained by circumstances and cognitive
> >> >> >> > processes than by concepts like character.
>
> >> >> >> > Work like this is challenging traditional economics - the genre is
> >> >> >> > 'behavioural economics'. My own take on this book and a lot of work
> >> >> >> > from brain science and history is that we are at a tipping point in
> >> >> >> > respect of the possibility of a human science. I'd like to see a
> >> >> >> > broader literature take up this challenge beyond current drivel on
> >> >> >> > black and white hats.
>
> >> >> >> > So what are you guys reading?
>
> >> >> > --
>
> >> >> --
> >> >> (
> >> >> )
> >> >> |_D Allan
>
> >> >> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> >> >> Of course I talk to myself,
> >> >> Sometimes I need expert advice..- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> >> > --
>
> >> --
> >> (
> >> )
> >> |_D Allan
>
> >> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> >> Of course I talk to myself,
> >> Sometimes I need expert advice..- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > --
>
> --
> (
> )
> |_D Allan
>
> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> Of course I talk to myself,
> Sometimes I need expert advice..- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
--
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