interesting reference to the milkman.. ages gone bye
On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 9:25 AM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
That fits with a lot of biology RP. The idea of humans as rational,
conscious beings is a part story overdone. Rigs gets to some of the
wider trust issues. A lot of studies were done in an attempt to
understand what happens to us in families, growing up generally - one
of the most famous was by RD Laing. One strand we can pull from this
is that families are not necessarily very nice places - but this tends
to get overblown into nothing being other than a manipulation strategy
and even linked to game theory.
Game theory is pretty dumb, perhaps because of its proof through
maths. A classic example is the prisoners' dilemma. One might think
here that I have stolen a valuable diamond and rigs is going to fence
it for me, exchanging it for a big bag of cash. The problem is that
rigs and I are vicious reprobates and suspect we will kill each other
at the exchange. We thus come up with a plan to bury the diamond and
cash hundreds of miles apart and ring each other to say where they
are. But this is dumb as I might lie to rigs, collect the cash and
keep the diamond - or vice verse. The maths on this is that it is
always best to cheat because you always keep what you had to start
with and it the other party is gullible you get the diamond and the
cash. Frankly, on such a dumb problem, even maths that gave us access
to RP's unconscious, would be useless.
I take it as read everyone can see how dumb the scenario is. For a
start neither rigs or me would want to spend the rest of our lives
with the diamond, cash and fear of the other emerging from the shadows
with an ice pick! I'm also quite sure as an ex-cop that criminal
networks do establish trust. Rigs' fencing business would suffer
reputational damage if she ripped me off - etc.
In days when milk was delivered to the door, the milkman 'trusted'
people to pay at the end of the week and people often left the cash
with the empty bottles. In other trading systems it was common to
leave blood relative hostages until the deal was complete. Trust in
fact is a complex system. Indeed, our biology has trust, cheating,
deception, selfishness, cooperation and much more built-in. The idiot
right with its vaunted selfish individual finding equilibrium in a
collectivity of dirty rotten scoundrels is as dumb as love-trust
anarchic syndicalism or the existential union of egoists.
My own feeling is we have trapped ourselves in regulation that suits
sociopathic strategies.
On 22 May, 03:48, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Consciousness limits the spirit , it creates boundaries , no matter how
> large, whereas the unconscious is limitless. It explains its omnipotence as
> it is the source of all thoughts , decisions and actions.The myriads of
> universes are upheld by that unconscious spirit and arise and vanish into
> it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 1:10 AM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > believing in and unconscious God and pre-determinism actually makes a lot
> > of sense it is very clear cut RP.. why do you need a rational discourse..
> > my question is how do you arrive at an unconscious God? have not heard
> > it put that way before..
>
> > On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 4:02 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> This group is not meant for blunt admissions but for discussions
> >> regarding individual beliefs and ideas. If I bluntly say that I believe in
> >> an unconscious God and predeterminism , it amounts to nothing. I have to
> >> put forward logic and rational discourse in support of my beliefs , and if
> >> that does not convince you , so be it as I am not here to convert you to my
> >> belief system.
>
> >> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 7:21 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> why don't you bluntly say just what you do believe.
>
> >>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 3:26 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> I have never talked about religion , if I have used such terminology it
> >>>> is just to express myself. I have never tried to convert anybody , only
> >>>> laying down my belief and it has nothing to do with religion. Examining my
> >>>> beliefs from different angles is not meant to coax you but simply a method
> >>>> of examination. We are here to discus our ideas , and if you think I am
> >>>> talking from a book , you are mistaken. All religions believe in human
> >>>> souls whereas I don't , so where is the book thumping that you are accusing
> >>>> me of all the time.
>
> >>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>> No not at all ,,, you asked a simple question and I gave the
> >>>>> reference point,, nothing more .. I also refereed to the
> >>>>> guideline source for you the Hindi beliefs.. If I tried hammering home
> >>>>> christian fundamentalism beliefs on you,, again and again trying to
> >>>>> convince you I am right that is bible thumping,,
>
> >>>>> I do know that one of the Islamic sect has beliefs relating to Zombies
> >>>>> talking about their beliefs does not constitute book thumping..
> >>>>> or referring to gospel of Buddha is just a reference. If you are
> >>>>> showing how a religious concept works is one thing.. trying to convert
> >>>>> people to your belief you are into the realm of thumping..
>
> >>>>> I have my own beliefs some of which evolved from discussions right
> >>>>> here on Minds Eye.. The idea of the group is to share knowledge not to
> >>>>> make converts.. it is hard to explain beliefs,, examining them can be very
> >>>>> interesting.. like I thought my comments relating to Zombies and souls..
> >>>>> RP it is strange to find out that you are saying and thought to be
> >>>>> original has already been said and part of a sects beliefs..
>
> >>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 2:22 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:> >>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 5:15 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>>>>> When you quote the Bible it is a simple religious answer , but when
> >>>>>> others refer from a book you call them book thumpers. Aren't you
> >>>>>> contradicting yourself or maybe you are playing with two set of
> >>>>>> rules---one for yourself and your cronies and the other for the rest of us.
>
>
> >>>>>>> Not really RP you asked a question and I gave you the simple answer
> >>>>>>> guideline are of a religious nature..
>
> >>>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 12:58 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:> >>>>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 3:54 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>> Now , aren't we being book-thumpers , Allan ?
>
>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 12:08 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> In the western world it basically known as the 10 commandments or
> >>>>>>>>> above all do know harm.. as for India RP I would ask vam he is far better
> >>>>>>>>> versed in Hindi than I am.
>
>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com>wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> " the importance staying within guidelines God laid down to
> >>>>>>>>>> follow.."
>
> >>>>>>>>>> What are those guidelines and when and where did God lay them
> >>>>>>>>>> down ?
>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 5:57 AM, James <ashkas...@gmail.com>wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> I have been thinking about trust, it seems we lose it via lies,
> >>>>>>>>>>> dishonesty and distortion of the truth. It is difficult to trust when
> >>>>>>>>>>> those a person or organizations a persons trusts are constantly violating
> >>>>>>>>>>> that trust. I seriously think that people's souls have forgotten they are
> >>>>>>>>>>> accountable for even the small dishonesty or the importance staying within
> >>>>>>>>>>> guidelines God laid down to follow.. Sad really
>
> ...>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Machiavellian intelligence has been a useful concept for me in
> >>>>>>>>>>>> dealing with manipulative, intelligent, and dominating personalities. How
> >>>>>>>>>>>> this relates to trust, in my view prominently, is in reciprocation of
> >>>>>>>>>>>> honesty and mutual respect. Identifying a bully in one of the three above
> >>>>>>>>>>>> is easy as pie but can get confusing as skill increases across them all, it
> >>>>>>>>>>>> can leave one questioning themselves, which most of the tactics are
> >>>>>>>>>>>> targeting vulnerability or creating through unease. In turn what can be
> >>>>>>>>>>>> gained is an immunity to those tactics and self recognition, as the rules
> >>>>>>>>>>>> of the schoolground go or older siblings learning regret for toughening up
> >>>>>>>>>>>> their little brother. The chaffing and soreness just isn't worth the rub
> >>>>>>>>>>>> though, I am wondering why so many find themselves in a position beneath
> >>>>>>>>>>>> such, and think a good many rules are in place to keep a balance. If one
> >>>>>>>>>>>> lacks trust of self it seems they would have to endure and persevere at the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> mercy of the games Molly. I mean that winceingly.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> There is a great and well-guided side to it also! :) I am
> >>>>>>>>>>>> curious why I keep thinking of 'motivation' when I try to place this into a
> >>>>>>>>>>>> psychodynamic (unintended redundancy) context.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2013 4:28 PM, Molly wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Not sure those models help us if we find ourselves witholding
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> trust
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> although not sure why. theories are great, but if I cannot
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> trust, but
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> want to, the theories aren't all that helpful.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 20, 12:24 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most of us in organisational development gave up on the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> love-trust
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> model because we saw it as dangerous. The reality is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Machiavellian.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris Argyris is probably the major writer in this area -
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> essentially
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we need to work with theories-in-use rather than espoused
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> theories.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 20 May, 12:11, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, indeed. our first basic trust lessons come early. I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was always
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested to see how ruthless children can be. I suppose
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they learn
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it somewhere. Left unchecked, it can grow into the now
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cliche
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bullying that they tell us is part of growing up. Part of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> life,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually, as my mother in law was a bully, and I watched he
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> methods
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> become more subtle as time went after her overt methods were
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no longer
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taken seriously. I think we learn, as time goes on, the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currency of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trust - the exchange of trust and trustworthiness. It is as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> misused
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as any other currency, but when used efficiently, brings
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> life.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 19, 10:22 am, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Re children and trust- a good test is to slice the pie and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> watch their
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> eyes judging if each piece is exactly the same size or who
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got better
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christmas presents, etc.= sibling whining-rivalry. It may
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be traced to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-interest over-riding trust in the family or group.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Check out
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Probate Court! The first sins of Genesis display this quite
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well- to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the point of expulsion and the first human murder.//Alert
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> citizens
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know the games being played in their cultures- do they
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accept or avoid
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them? And what exactly is glorified in the various cultures
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of human
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> history? I think that's where the answer lies.//As for the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> media/news-
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there is something warped that becomes intoxicated with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> violence,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crime, bad weather, Hollywood breasts, etc. Now local
>
>
> read more »
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|_D Allan
Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..
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