Allan
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On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:15 AM, Vam <atewari2007@gmail.com> wrote:
Allan, there is thread that Neil has started... it's important...
starts with what " I " and we each might want, as in time vs work vs
remuneration, sees problems in that context that democracy as a system
has, and recalls the presence of "banksters" and oligarchs who might
certainly ( oxymoron ) thwart the kind of dispensation which will
allow all that we seek in economic terms, to serve in turn our need
for freedom and leisure !
First, as it is, we are not there at all... when our dream of a fair
life, with freedom and sufficiency, can be guaranteed for everyone.
Not when we have just ousted Gaddafi, who'd stolen 143 tonnes of gold
( approx US$ 8 billions ) with the connivance of this same world order
that prevails.
Not when armies and militias are equipped to establish the " might is
right " rule in US, Turkey, Israel, LatAm, Africa, ME, Pak, Maoists in
India n Nepal, Sri Lanka, Burma, China, Philipines, NKorea... and a
whole host of motley warlords and rebels all over.
Not when 1318 TNCs still control ownership over the wealth and means
that produce 80% of world's revenues and bankroll most of the
"might" !
Agreed a few societies can begin to take tentative steps... yet, even
in them, not everybody is on the same page, with the same degree of
evolution. The Scandinavians are much better placed but there too the
effects of globalisation and multi-culturalism is manifest, both for
the better, in fostering liberalism, and worse, in fracturing the
homogeneity and causing social fault lines.
In conclusion, I do not find myself in a position to lay out
certainties... a whole picture with rules, institutions and processes,
clearly laid out across society, polity and economy, and a justice
system to keep it going.
Now, this is not say that I do not have ideas of what a modern
Corporation should be like or what is the kind of Society I would
prefer to have.
I Much complexity about us... as individuals, persons... has to be
sorted out in our spirit and our intellect, so as to be able to by-
pass the emotional relativism we claim as a matter of right, in our
needs and our value judgements, our willfulness, our motivations, our
sense and extent of ownership, etc... before we really can expect
simplicity in our deeds, speech, values, behaviour and way of life.
The social, economic and political simplicity must seamlessly pervade
our personal lives, which in turn should be self - empowered enough to
deal with the complexities that arise through our sub-conscious, vital
and emotional content. These complexities, drives and should be
channeled into arts, meditation, literature, drama, celluloid, canvas,
music, crafts, even personal religious practices... but not find
expression in speech or behaviour transgressing our community
commitment to simplicity, fairness, honesty, freedom, non-violence,
human rights, compassion and kindness.
It's a tall order... one I believe in, live with, and most of the time
act in accord, without having hope or expectation of any kind from
others or society about me.
II We would always need human initiative... to create, improve,
form, lead, manage, organise, write, debate, think, suggest,
experiment... so, Capitalism would still be our best bet, under
regulation to check... miscarriage of justice, unjust treatment,
unfair practice or advantages, equal opportunity, transparency, human
rights, recognition and reward, etc.
Profit is welcome... profiteering is not. Profit should take care of
reasonable expenses and remunerations, returns on risks and
initiatives, cost of capital, and the costs of remaining in business
in future incl R&D, creation of reserves, etc.
III I would still go along with Democracy, not only for want of a
better system of governance but also for the promises its evolution
holds. All it needs are mechanisms and structures to feedback people's
will and participitation, not just from one election to another but on
monthly, fortnightly and daily basis.
There should be a number of truly autonomous, empowered and competent
regulatory bodies to oversee the Govt / Executive, quite as the
Judiciary oversees the Legislature passing laws in accord with
provisions in the Constitution... Regulatory Bodies for Exchanges,
Insurance, Anti-Corrution, Citizen's Charter Of Services, Human
Rights, Food, Education, Sports, Media, Advertising, Consumer
Protection, Energy, Mining, Environment, Animal Rights, Water
Resources, Forests, Pollution, Companies & Corporations, etc.
There should Promotion bodies as well, as institutional arms of the
govt.
IV Corporations are unavoidable... but they ought to be more in the
nature of public trusts, as in they serve the people and their needs,
than private fiefs !
The rest will take care of itself... once its people interests and
will that comes centre-stage in govt, parliament, judiciary, corp,
police... that's all we want, in preparing for the day when people are
ready to form society in accord with their higher nature !
Sorry for the voluminous output. And Thanks for your patience.
On Oct 24, 11:51 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I actually understand what you are saying Vam,, I do not think it is
> forcing ones will on another,, Just to the contrary,, it is looking at
> ideas to build a better society, hopefully you will add you thoughts and
> ideas,, looking at what is wrong and not just saying this is bad , this is
> bad condemning everything,, not this is bad but what is more important is
> we look at how to improve all of society taking the best of eastern and
> western ideas..
>
> I do not think India run by a few individuals using corporations is what
> you want.. or is it?
>
> Unfortunately the world is becoming more dependent on the rest of society.
> The questions come down to what we see as good in our way of life (western)
> and hopefully what you see as good in your way of life (eastern) but that
> takes your input in all areas philosophical, financial, and in economics,
> which includes health care, how to deal with natural disasters,
> Today unfortunately what happens in your home also effects me here in
> Holland , Neil in England and Molly in the States , just to name a few..
>
> The question is two part.. 1; How do we create a better society 2: how do
> we prevent corporations from dominating the world society.
>
> But if you do not add you insights on just how you see the world government
> should be.. How can your ideas be included if you do not add them?
>
> Not that any of us have the power to change the world, there are some of us
> who qualify as "grouchy old men" me included.. But , I repeat But maybe
> someone will read what we have to say that can improve the world and
> society.
>
> Vam your ideas on what corporations,and government should be like is
> extremely important,, at least to me.
>
> The question is how do we improve all of society and is is it possible to
> keep the individuality and best of each society.
> Allan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ...> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 7:30 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I share your enthusiasm Gabby. All very well Vam - yet the language
> > around us is so deceptive we have to do something new with it so as
> > not to be suckered by fine words from the weasel.
>
> > On Oct 24, 5:35 am, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > From Brihadaranyaka Upanishad ( one of the oldest ) :
>
> > > "Verily, not for the sake of the husband, my dear, is the husband
> > > loved, but he is loved for the sake of the self which, in its true
> > > nature, is one with the Supreme Self.
>
> > > "Verily, not for the sake of the wife, my dear, is the wife loved, but
> > > she is loved for the sake of the self.
>
> > > "Verily, not for the sake of the sons, my dear, are the sons loved,
> > > hut they are loved for the sake of the self.
>
> > > "Verily, not for the sake of wealth, my dear, is wealth loved, but it
> > > is loved for the sake of the self.
>
> > > "Verily, not for the sake of the brahmin, my dear, is the brahmin
> > > loved, but he is loved for the sake of the self.
>
> > > "Verily, not for the sake of the kshatriya, my dear, is the kshatriya
> > > loved, but he is loved for the sake of the self.
>
> > > "Verily, not for the sake of the worlds, my dear, are the worlds
> > > loved, but they are loved for the sake of the self.
>
> > > "Verily, not for the sake of the gods, my dear, are the gods loved,
> > > but they are loved for the sake of the self.
>
> > > "Verily, not for the sake of the beings, my dear, are the beings
> > > loved, but they are loved for the sake of the self.
>
> > > Verily, not for the sake of the All, my dear, is the All loved, but it
> > > is loved for the sake of the self.
>
> > > "Verily, my dear Maitreyi, it is the Self that should be realized—
> > > should be heard of, reflected on, and meditated upon.
>
> > > By the realization of the Self, my dear—through hearing, reflection,
> > > and meditation—all this is known.
>
> > > On Oct 23, 11:55 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > To feel concern for others or love , is a human feeling and a person
> > > > tries to better the lot of the less fortunate. There is nothing
> > > > Eastern or Western about this , but it is only a humane sentiment and
> > > > is common to all societies. If I make the lives of a few others happy
> > > > I feel happy about it , but that doesn't mean that my behavior is
> > > > self-centered , rather it would be so if I acted for my personal
> > > > well-being at the expense of others.
>
> > > > On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 11:54 PM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > I do not understand much that has been said here... really.
>
> > > > > What I can make out is this talk of doing something "for others."
> > This
> > > > > is shit. You don't do anything for others, because you can't. You can
> > > > > only do something for yourself. Now, if you believe that owning half
> > > > > the world or a huge mansion, or a carpeting that takes you 3" into
> > the
> > > > > ground is what you want to do for yourself... then that's what you'll
> > > > > do !
>
> > > > > The entire suggestion of doing something for others rests on the
> > > > > premise that that's what makes me happy. If it doesn't, then one
> > > > > wouldn't do it. And, even if one does because one is forced to do, it
> > > > > wouldn't make one happy. Which doesn't help the person... in his
> > > > > becoming happy !
>
> > > > > That's the Eastern thing... I help others because I want to help
> > > > > myself... because that's the only way I can help myself !
>
> > > > > On Oct 23, 4:48 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > >> Somewhat related:
>
> > > > >> "42
>
> > > > >> Note how perverse is the attitude of the weak toward their
> > > > >> benefactors. They feel generosity as oppression; they want to
> > > > >> retaliate. They say to their benefactors: ' May the day come when
> > you
> > > > >> shall be weak and we will send bundles to America.'
>
> > > > >> You do not win the weak by sharing your wealth with them; it will
> > but
> > > > >> infect them with greed and resentment. You can win the weak only by
> > > > >> sharing your pride, hope or hatred with them."
>
> > > > >> from "The Passionate State of Mind" By Eric Hoffer
>
> > > > >> On Oct 22, 8:42 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >> > One could hold Marx accountable for the horrors of the Soviet
> > Union
> > > > >> > and China under Mao. Not his economic analysis but some of
> > > > >> > revolutionary urging - though surely countless abuses by the
> > "noble
> > > > >> > class" are worse. I did some shameful stuff handling informants
> > in
> > > > >> > our stupid war in Northern Ireland, excusing it at the time under
> > a
> > > > >> > greater good I now know false. We ran an even bloodier war in
> > > > >> > Indonesia (28,000 dead) most in the UK were not aware of at the
> > time
> > > > >> > and many don't know about now (though it's no longer secret).
>
> > > > >> > I've been led to believe we can't really discuss much on society
> > > > >> > unless we address the realities of world power and its links to
> > the
> > > > >> > money system the rich dominate. Otherwise one more or less cops
> > out
> > > > >> > and makes a living. Teaching has led me to realise how scant my
> > own
> > > > >> > knowledge is, but also the lack of interest most people have in
> > > > >> > learning more than what gets them by.
>
> > > > >> > We now have the technology to show how many things link up and
> > that
> > > > >> > the "riches" developed in a shadow banking system that is bigger
> > than
> > > > >> > the real economy several times over are fictitious and merely suck
> > > > >> > value out of toil - and the same technology could also regulate
> > the
> > > > >> > economy through 'transparent money' - instead it's used for the
> > > > >> > opposite purpose and also supports the military complex. This is
> > > > >> > obvious but people still don't get it.
>
> > > > >> > On Oct 22, 7:47 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >> > > Life is always full of cause and effects. Everyone is
> > accountable for the
> > > > >> > > effects caused by their actions,, even if you claim to have no
> > choice....
> > > > >> > > Allan
>
> > > > >> > > On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 7:48 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > >> > > > People 'escape' responsibility in fictitious ways all the
> > time RP -
> > > > >> > > > though I agree that inevitably one can't. I'm always
> > saddened by
> > > > >> > > > those who stress we should have communism or capitalism and
> > can't see
> > > > >> > > > there is some kind of loop. They want to reduce everything
> > to a kind
> > > > >> > > > of baby-talk more appropriate to sport locker rooms than
> > responsible
> > > > >> > > > dialogue. The escape from responsibility is into world-views
> > that
> > > > >> > > > exclude the other and especially consequences for others.
>
> > > > >> > > > On Oct 22, 6:26 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >> > > > > To be held accountable for one's actions , doesn't it look
> > scary when
> > > > >> > > > > you know you couldn't have done otherwise given your
> > personality at
> > > > >> > > > > the given time and the circumstances. Yet we cannot escape
> > > > >> > > > > responsibility !
>
> > > > >> > > > > On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 11:41 PM, archytas <
> > nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >> > > > > > I like the theme RP - but what of being 'bound' by
> > genetics/evolution/
> > > > >> > > > > > environment - which gives some clues on how to escape
> > through
> > > > >> > > > > > knowledge?
>
> > > > >> > > > > > On Oct 13, 4:30 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >> > > > > >> It is God who binds you and not you yourself , and so
> > you are
> > > > >> > > > > >> accountable to yourself and society , but not to God. In
> > this world
> > > > >> > > > > >> you are doing everything freely , but in God's presence
> > you are just a
> > > > >> > > > > >> puppet. If I am bound to err , it doesn't absolve me of
> > the action as
> > > > >> > > > > >> it has been done by me , and if you hurt me , again you
> > are
> > > > >> > > > > >> accountable for it as it is done by you. It is only in
> > God's presence
> > > > >> > > > > >> that you are innocent as you are a puppet in his hand ,
>
>
> read more »
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|_D Allan
Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
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