On Feb 29, 4:09 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Puh, Molly, the "because it also brings joy" is like explaining why you
> should laugh about my funny joke.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The wrath of Christ toward the money changers in the temple is
> > repeated in us until recognized. Recognition is the key. the
> > rational mind will always reason and compare because that is the
> > necessary function of it. When we base our identity in these
> > comparisons, we limit our own natures, because they are limited.
> > Witnessing not only what we think about, the form of the thought, but
> > how we think, our thinking processes, is what gets us beyond the
> > limitation of thinking. We get beyond with recognition. Experiencing
> > the world with a silent mind is like standing on the best viewpoint in
> > the Grand Canyon. Exhilarating. Being able to maintain a quiet mind
> > the majority of the time requires not only recognition (and
> > detachment) of thought, but the process of thinking. Thinking doesn't
> > stop. We stop basing our identities in it, and we use it less.
>
> > Few things bring us to the recognition of our experience beyond
> > thought like a good laugh, because it also brings joy.
>
> > On Feb 27, 1:49 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I don't disagree with Molly, though I was just presenting what her
> > > words 'rang' in me. My belief is that consciousness in used too
> > > infrequently - the basics of the mess of our communities and people is
> > > unconscious and broadly animal (the mess includes some good stuff).
> > > Consciousness is too easily overcome by cunning, and, as Molly says,
> > > narcissism.
> > > What has struck me for a long time is how difficult it is to present
> > > argument because it's too difficult to get anyone to take part
> > > 'honestly' - this is particularly difficult for teachers these days!
> > > In some areas, I have stopped thinking in standard ways - gender is an
> > > example. I tend to see in terms of certain types being fascinated by
> > > trinkets, fashion, gossip - one could imagine a shaggy dog story here
> > > in which these types all turn out to be women - but honestly that's
> > > not what I mean. I'm not interested in my identity as a man - but in
> > > terms of what I'm able to be and do - maleness is largely a
> > > constraint, animal and not much I want. The opportunities for
> > > identity seem very much off-the-peg and already detailed to copy. One
> > > modern identity that interests me is that of the 'empty creditor' -
> > > those who bring bankruptcy about through derivatives wangles. Some of
> > > my students clearly see such as models to copy - shrewd in money-
> > > making. The image of this identity in me is more one of the vile
> > > usurer demanding sex through threats of eviction in silent film. The
> > > apparatchiks quickly became entrepreneurchiks once Soviet rhetoric
> > > gave way to World Bank trash. There is surely a false individualism
> > > that is merely chameleon-like? And soul is denied RP. I suspect mine
> > > troubles me and I don't not welcome that given what I see around me!
>
> > > On Feb 26, 3:53 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > The thes [THEs] that define this may come in undivided by duality, what
> > > > they have been multiplied with is to be experienced nevertheless.
>
> > > > On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 3:25 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > The one who is aware of oneself and the others is the individual --
> > > > > and that cannot be without consciousness. The one that is unconscious
> > > > > is not an individual but the Soul from which all the individualities
> > > > > emanate. The identity is just the covering of an individuality.
>
> > > > > On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 7:33 PM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > Ideas of identity are related to matter - I allow that to happen
> > every
> > > > > > night.
>
> > > > > > On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 2:40 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > > > >> I know my view is not that of the world.. if it was there would
> > have
> > > > > >> been massive changes long ago,, the best I can hope for is to
> > ask the
> > > > > right
> > > > > >> questions, throw out some ideas,, in talking with young people
> > and
> > > > > >> hopefully they may start thinking and come up with ideas that they
> > > > > might be
> > > > > >> able to bring about change.. they are the one that have the
> > > > > responsibility
> > > > > >> now. My role at best would be of that of an elder.
>
> > > > > >> I do know you can not pay off debt with more debt. all though
> > people
> > > > > will
> > > > > >> try to convince you that you can do it with poverty. whether they
> > like
> > > > > it or
> > > > > >> not their souls are at risk.
>
> > > > > >> Our ideas need to be put out there for examination whether they
> > are
> > > > > right
> > > > > >> or wrong, it doesn't matter..
> > > > > >> Allan
>
> > > > > >> On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > > > >>> If what is on either side of the equal sign goes both ways, your
> > > > > >>> interpretation of my statement would be accurate. I think I was
> > > > > >>> saying that we confuse our world view for what is in actuality,
> > our
> > > > > >>> individual view. In other words, we sometimes think the whole
> > world
> > > > > >>> has a view that is actually just ours in the moment. There is a
> > > > > >>> narcissistic psychology to this that seems to be prevalent in
> > those
> > > > > >>> that need to feel themselves "right" or superior or more
> > powerful.
> > > > > >>> I've also found it interesting that everyone else in the room can
> > > > > >>> sometimes see it, but the person espousing. A good absurd joke
> > can
> > > > > >>> bust through that illusion and humble us in a way that brings us
> > to
> > > > > >>> the point of knowing that we know nothing, it is all a matter of
> > view.
>
> > > > > >>> To discuss individuality, we should probably discuss identity,
> > which
> > > > > >>> is what the narcissist will defend to the end, needing to be
> > right,
> > > > > >>> see others as wrong and so on. How we create our identities has
> > a
> > > > > >>> direct relationship to consciousness, because as more of our
> > > > > >>> consciousness is found in the infinite, and less in limitations,
> > we
> > > > > >>> quite naturally let go of our stories, identity, our values -
> > and they
> > > > > >>> are aligned with the eternal. We are by design, both finite and
> > > > > >>> infinite. Our identities are steeped in duality and limitation.
> > > > > >>> After a long day a work, a good comedy routine can help shed all
> > the
> > > > > >>> tensions of the day, and restore my harmony. Resting
> > my(our)self(ves)
> > > > > >>> in the paradox of the one and the many brings a good nights
> > sleep.
>
> > > > > >>> On Feb 24, 4:06 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >>> > Molly made the point in another thread that we conflate
> > individuality
> > > > > >>> > with what is really a world-view. Most of us like to think
> > we have
> > > > > >>> > a good quota of individuality - but then express this as
> > dedicated
> > > > > >>> > followers of fashion. I know as a teacher that trying to set
> > up
> > > > > >>> > lessons that students really take hold of and do their own
> > thing in
> > > > > >>> > relies an having some pretty unusual people in. Most students
> > claim
> > > > > >>> > to want to do their own thing, but the vast majority will do no
> > > > > >>> > constructive work (even against my open standards on what this
> > can
> > > > > be)
> > > > > >>> > if they have to organise it themselves. US society is often
> > claimed
> > > > > >>> > to be the most individualistic in the world - yet look at the
> > > > > >>> > organisation in American Football.
>
> > > > > >>> > My own view is that our lack of individuality actually arises
> > from
> > > > > the
> > > > > >>> > promulgation of celebrity, either as in mad political cults or
> > via
> > > > > >>> > 'International Hollywood'. An example of the first is North
> > Korea
> > > > > >>> > and, of course, we are the prime example of the latter. In
> > our case,
> > > > > >>> > the ready-to-hand of ADMASS means we have almost no real public
> > > > > >>> > dialogue as everything is mediated through the crass world
> > view and
> > > > > >>> > most people have soaked this up as their individuality. Quine
> > made
> > > > > >>> > the point long ago that the notion of evidence is difficult
> > because
> > > > > of
> > > > > >>> > something like this. People think the evidence has come from
> > the
> > > > > >>> > outside, when in fact they only deal with what has impinged and
> > > > > >>> > networked in the world-view they have soaked up.
>
> > > > > >>> > There's a classic example of this about at the moment. It's
> > debt and
> > > > > >>> > the way we construe the term in the way we think about
> > household debt
> > > > > >>> > as the same as this economic-bankster stuff. Normal dialogue
> > is
> > > > > >>> > impossible because most people can't understand the language
> > because
> > > > > >>> > they have never invested the effort to get beyond an imprinted
> > self.
>
> > > > > >>> > Much has been written on this, usually under the guise of
> > paradigms -
> > > > > >>> > with the idea that we can learn different ones in external
> > language.
> > > > > >>> > This seems a non-starter for me, as at least 85% of "language"
> > is
> > > > > non-
> > > > > >>> > verbal and huge amounts manipulative. I would contend that
> > > > > >>> > individualism is the curse of our times and exemplified by such
> > > > > >>> > discussions as whether bankers and sports stars are worth their
> > > > > riches
> > > > > >>> > - always discussed in the paradigm of an individual
> > meritocracy that
> > > > > >>> > goes unchallenged. From other perspectives the presence of
> > these
> > > > > >>> > "individuals" is evidence of what they system produces and
> > reason
> > > > > >>> > enough to change it.
>
> > > > > >> --
> > > > > >> (
> > > > > >> )
> > > > > >> |_D Allan
>
> > > > > >> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
The wrath of Christ toward the money changers in the temple is
repeated in us until recognized. Recognition is the key. the
rational mind will always reason and compare because that is the
necessary function of it. When we base our identity in these
comparisons, we limit our own natures, because they are limited.
Witnessing not only what we think about, the form of the thought, but
how we think, our thinking processes, is what gets us beyond the
limitation of thinking. We get beyond with recognition. Experiencing
the world with a silent mind is like standing on the best viewpoint in
the Grand Canyon. Exhilarating. Being able to maintain a quiet mind
the majority of the time requires not only recognition (and
detachment) of thought, but the process of thinking. Thinking doesn't
stop. We stop basing our identities in it, and we use it less.
Few things bring us to the recognition of our experience beyond
thought like a good laugh, because it also brings joy.
On Feb 27, 1:49 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't disagree with Molly, though I was just presenting what her
> words 'rang' in me. My belief is that consciousness in used too
> infrequently - the basics of the mess of our communities and people is
> unconscious and broadly animal (the mess includes some good stuff).
> Consciousness is too easily overcome by cunning, and, as Molly says,
> narcissism.
> What has struck me for a long time is how difficult it is to present
> argument because it's too difficult to get anyone to take part
> 'honestly' - this is particularly difficult for teachers these days!
> In some areas, I have stopped thinking in standard ways - gender is an
> example. I tend to see in terms of certain types being fascinated by
> trinkets, fashion, gossip - one could imagine a shaggy dog story here
> in which these types all turn out to be women - but honestly that's
> not what I mean. I'm not interested in my identity as a man - but in
> terms of what I'm able to be and do - maleness is largely a
> constraint, animal and not much I want. The opportunities for
> identity seem very much off-the-peg and already detailed to copy. One
> modern identity that interests me is that of the 'empty creditor' -
> those who bring bankruptcy about through derivatives wangles. Some of
> my students clearly see such as models to copy - shrewd in money-
> making. The image of this identity in me is more one of the vile
> usurer demanding sex through threats of eviction in silent film. The
> apparatchiks quickly became entrepreneurchiks once Soviet rhetoric
> gave way to World Bank trash. There is surely a false individualism
> that is merely chameleon-like? And soul is denied RP. I suspect mine
> troubles me and I don't not welcome that given what I see around me!
>
> On Feb 26, 3:53 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > The thes [THEs] that define this may come in undivided by duality, what
> > they have been multiplied with is to be experienced nevertheless.
>
> > On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 3:25 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > The one who is aware of oneself and the others is the individual --
> > > and that cannot be without consciousness. The one that is unconscious
> > > is not an individual but the Soul from which all the individualities
> > > emanate. The identity is just the covering of an individuality.
>
> > > On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 7:33 PM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Ideas of identity are related to matter - I allow that to happen every
> > > > night.
>
> > > > On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 2:40 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > >> I know my view is not that of the world.. if it was there would have
> > > >> been massive changes long ago,, the best I can hope for is to ask the
> > > right
> > > >> questions, throw out some ideas,, in talking with young people and
> > > >> hopefully they may start thinking and come up with ideas that they
> > > might be
> > > >> able to bring about change.. they are the one that have the
> > > responsibility
> > > >> now. My role at best would be of that of an elder.
>
> > > >> I do know you can not pay off debt with more debt. all though people
> > > will
> > > >> try to convince you that you can do it with poverty. whether they like
> > > it or
> > > >> not their souls are at risk.
>
> > > >> Our ideas need to be put out there for examination whether they are
> > > right
> > > >> or wrong, it doesn't matter..
> > > >> Allan
>
> > > >> On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > >>> If what is on either side of the equal sign goes both ways, your
> > > >>> interpretation of my statement would be accurate. I think I was
> > > >>> saying that we confuse our world view for what is in actuality, our
> > > >>> individual view. In other words, we sometimes think the whole world
> > > >>> has a view that is actually just ours in the moment. There is a
> > > >>> narcissistic psychology to this that seems to be prevalent in those
> > > >>> that need to feel themselves "right" or superior or more powerful.
> > > >>> I've also found it interesting that everyone else in the room can
> > > >>> sometimes see it, but the person espousing. A good absurd joke can
> > > >>> bust through that illusion and humble us in a way that brings us to
> > > >>> the point of knowing that we know nothing, it is all a matter of view.
>
> > > >>> To discuss individuality, we should probably discuss identity, which
> > > >>> is what the narcissist will defend to the end, needing to be right,
> > > >>> see others as wrong and so on. How we create our identities has a
> > > >>> direct relationship to consciousness, because as more of our
> > > >>> consciousness is found in the infinite, and less in limitations, we
> > > >>> quite naturally let go of our stories, identity, our values - and they
> > > >>> are aligned with the eternal. We are by design, both finite and
> > > >>> infinite. Our identities are steeped in duality and limitation.
> > > >>> After a long day a work, a good comedy routine can help shed all the
> > > >>> tensions of the day, and restore my harmony. Resting my(our)self(ves)
> > > >>> in the paradox of the one and the many brings a good nights sleep.
>
> > > >>> On Feb 24, 4:06 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>> > Molly made the point in another thread that we conflate individuality
> > > >>> > with what is really a world-view. Most of us like to think we have
> > > >>> > a good quota of individuality - but then express this as dedicated
> > > >>> > followers of fashion. I know as a teacher that trying to set up
> > > >>> > lessons that students really take hold of and do their own thing in
> > > >>> > relies an having some pretty unusual people in. Most students claim
> > > >>> > to want to do their own thing, but the vast majority will do no
> > > >>> > constructive work (even against my open standards on what this can
> > > be)
> > > >>> > if they have to organise it themselves. US society is often claimed
> > > >>> > to be the most individualistic in the world - yet look at the
> > > >>> > organisation in American Football.
>
> > > >>> > My own view is that our lack of individuality actually arises from
> > > the
> > > >>> > promulgation of celebrity, either as in mad political cults or via
> > > >>> > 'International Hollywood'. An example of the first is North Korea
> > > >>> > and, of course, we are the prime example of the latter. In our case,
> > > >>> > the ready-to-hand of ADMASS means we have almost no real public
> > > >>> > dialogue as everything is mediated through the crass world view and
> > > >>> > most people have soaked this up as their individuality. Quine made
> > > >>> > the point long ago that the notion of evidence is difficult because
> > > of
> > > >>> > something like this. People think the evidence has come from the
> > > >>> > outside, when in fact they only deal with what has impinged and
> > > >>> > networked in the world-view they have soaked up.
>
> > > >>> > There's a classic example of this about at the moment. It's debt and
> > > >>> > the way we construe the term in the way we think about household debt
> > > >>> > as the same as this economic-bankster stuff. Normal dialogue is
> > > >>> > impossible because most people can't understand the language because
> > > >>> > they have never invested the effort to get beyond an imprinted self.
>
> > > >>> > Much has been written on this, usually under the guise of paradigms -
> > > >>> > with the idea that we can learn different ones in external language.
> > > >>> > This seems a non-starter for me, as at least 85% of "language" is
> > > non-
> > > >>> > verbal and huge amounts manipulative. I would contend that
> > > >>> > individualism is the curse of our times and exemplified by such
> > > >>> > discussions as whether bankers and sports stars are worth their
> > > riches
> > > >>> > - always discussed in the paradigm of an individual meritocracy that
> > > >>> > goes unchallenged. From other perspectives the presence of these
> > > >>> > "individuals" is evidence of what they system produces and reason
> > > >>> > enough to change it.
>
> > > >> --
> > > >> (
> > > >> )
> > > >> |_D Allan
>
> > > >> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
repeated in us until recognized. Recognition is the key. the
rational mind will always reason and compare because that is the
necessary function of it. When we base our identity in these
comparisons, we limit our own natures, because they are limited.
Witnessing not only what we think about, the form of the thought, but
how we think, our thinking processes, is what gets us beyond the
limitation of thinking. We get beyond with recognition. Experiencing
the world with a silent mind is like standing on the best viewpoint in
the Grand Canyon. Exhilarating. Being able to maintain a quiet mind
the majority of the time requires not only recognition (and
detachment) of thought, but the process of thinking. Thinking doesn't
stop. We stop basing our identities in it, and we use it less.
Few things bring us to the recognition of our experience beyond
thought like a good laugh, because it also brings joy.
On Feb 27, 1:49 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't disagree with Molly, though I was just presenting what her
> words 'rang' in me. My belief is that consciousness in used too
> infrequently - the basics of the mess of our communities and people is
> unconscious and broadly animal (the mess includes some good stuff).
> Consciousness is too easily overcome by cunning, and, as Molly says,
> narcissism.
> What has struck me for a long time is how difficult it is to present
> argument because it's too difficult to get anyone to take part
> 'honestly' - this is particularly difficult for teachers these days!
> In some areas, I have stopped thinking in standard ways - gender is an
> example. I tend to see in terms of certain types being fascinated by
> trinkets, fashion, gossip - one could imagine a shaggy dog story here
> in which these types all turn out to be women - but honestly that's
> not what I mean. I'm not interested in my identity as a man - but in
> terms of what I'm able to be and do - maleness is largely a
> constraint, animal and not much I want. The opportunities for
> identity seem very much off-the-peg and already detailed to copy. One
> modern identity that interests me is that of the 'empty creditor' -
> those who bring bankruptcy about through derivatives wangles. Some of
> my students clearly see such as models to copy - shrewd in money-
> making. The image of this identity in me is more one of the vile
> usurer demanding sex through threats of eviction in silent film. The
> apparatchiks quickly became entrepreneurchiks once Soviet rhetoric
> gave way to World Bank trash. There is surely a false individualism
> that is merely chameleon-like? And soul is denied RP. I suspect mine
> troubles me and I don't not welcome that given what I see around me!
>
> On Feb 26, 3:53 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > The thes [THEs] that define this may come in undivided by duality, what
> > they have been multiplied with is to be experienced nevertheless.
>
> > On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 3:25 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > The one who is aware of oneself and the others is the individual --
> > > and that cannot be without consciousness. The one that is unconscious
> > > is not an individual but the Soul from which all the individualities
> > > emanate. The identity is just the covering of an individuality.
>
> > > On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 7:33 PM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Ideas of identity are related to matter - I allow that to happen every
> > > > night.
>
> > > > On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 2:40 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > >> I know my view is not that of the world.. if it was there would have
> > > >> been massive changes long ago,, the best I can hope for is to ask the
> > > right
> > > >> questions, throw out some ideas,, in talking with young people and
> > > >> hopefully they may start thinking and come up with ideas that they
> > > might be
> > > >> able to bring about change.. they are the one that have the
> > > responsibility
> > > >> now. My role at best would be of that of an elder.
>
> > > >> I do know you can not pay off debt with more debt. all though people
> > > will
> > > >> try to convince you that you can do it with poverty. whether they like
> > > it or
> > > >> not their souls are at risk.
>
> > > >> Our ideas need to be put out there for examination whether they are
> > > right
> > > >> or wrong, it doesn't matter..
> > > >> Allan
>
> > > >> On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > >>> If what is on either side of the equal sign goes both ways, your
> > > >>> interpretation of my statement would be accurate. I think I was
> > > >>> saying that we confuse our world view for what is in actuality, our
> > > >>> individual view. In other words, we sometimes think the whole world
> > > >>> has a view that is actually just ours in the moment. There is a
> > > >>> narcissistic psychology to this that seems to be prevalent in those
> > > >>> that need to feel themselves "right" or superior or more powerful.
> > > >>> I've also found it interesting that everyone else in the room can
> > > >>> sometimes see it, but the person espousing. A good absurd joke can
> > > >>> bust through that illusion and humble us in a way that brings us to
> > > >>> the point of knowing that we know nothing, it is all a matter of view.
>
> > > >>> To discuss individuality, we should probably discuss identity, which
> > > >>> is what the narcissist will defend to the end, needing to be right,
> > > >>> see others as wrong and so on. How we create our identities has a
> > > >>> direct relationship to consciousness, because as more of our
> > > >>> consciousness is found in the infinite, and less in limitations, we
> > > >>> quite naturally let go of our stories, identity, our values - and they
> > > >>> are aligned with the eternal. We are by design, both finite and
> > > >>> infinite. Our identities are steeped in duality and limitation.
> > > >>> After a long day a work, a good comedy routine can help shed all the
> > > >>> tensions of the day, and restore my harmony. Resting my(our)self(ves)
> > > >>> in the paradox of the one and the many brings a good nights sleep.
>
> > > >>> On Feb 24, 4:06 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>> > Molly made the point in another thread that we conflate individuality
> > > >>> > with what is really a world-view. Most of us like to think we have
> > > >>> > a good quota of individuality - but then express this as dedicated
> > > >>> > followers of fashion. I know as a teacher that trying to set up
> > > >>> > lessons that students really take hold of and do their own thing in
> > > >>> > relies an having some pretty unusual people in. Most students claim
> > > >>> > to want to do their own thing, but the vast majority will do no
> > > >>> > constructive work (even against my open standards on what this can
> > > be)
> > > >>> > if they have to organise it themselves. US society is often claimed
> > > >>> > to be the most individualistic in the world - yet look at the
> > > >>> > organisation in American Football.
>
> > > >>> > My own view is that our lack of individuality actually arises from
> > > the
> > > >>> > promulgation of celebrity, either as in mad political cults or via
> > > >>> > 'International Hollywood'. An example of the first is North Korea
> > > >>> > and, of course, we are the prime example of the latter. In our case,
> > > >>> > the ready-to-hand of ADMASS means we have almost no real public
> > > >>> > dialogue as everything is mediated through the crass world view and
> > > >>> > most people have soaked this up as their individuality. Quine made
> > > >>> > the point long ago that the notion of evidence is difficult because
> > > of
> > > >>> > something like this. People think the evidence has come from the
> > > >>> > outside, when in fact they only deal with what has impinged and
> > > >>> > networked in the world-view they have soaked up.
>
> > > >>> > There's a classic example of this about at the moment. It's debt and
> > > >>> > the way we construe the term in the way we think about household debt
> > > >>> > as the same as this economic-bankster stuff. Normal dialogue is
> > > >>> > impossible because most people can't understand the language because
> > > >>> > they have never invested the effort to get beyond an imprinted self.
>
> > > >>> > Much has been written on this, usually under the guise of paradigms -
> > > >>> > with the idea that we can learn different ones in external language.
> > > >>> > This seems a non-starter for me, as at least 85% of "language" is
> > > non-
> > > >>> > verbal and huge amounts manipulative. I would contend that
> > > >>> > individualism is the curse of our times and exemplified by such
> > > >>> > discussions as whether bankers and sports stars are worth their
> > > riches
> > > >>> > - always discussed in the paradigm of an individual meritocracy that
> > > >>> > goes unchallenged. From other perspectives the presence of these
> > > >>> > "individuals" is evidence of what they system produces and reason
> > > >>> > enough to change it.
>
> > > >> --
> > > >> (
> > > >> )
> > > >> |_D Allan
>
> > > >> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
Greece put collective action contracts into the latest "bailout" after
it was announced by the Fuhrer-country now in charge of continental
Europe. If we were personally holding Greek bonds they would be
asking us to take a 65% loss. We might have those bonds hedged via
CDS and be able to take 100% on this insurance should Greece default.
We might not decline the offer, but hedge funds like bought these
binds at discount and hedged via CDS. They will want a Greek
collpase. Standard and Poor has just announced it expects this.
Should we worry? I think so. The question is who 'owns' the
obligation to payout CDS and how much of that there is. Ridiculous as
it sounds Allan this is very much like insuring your house 100 times
over and being able to burn it down and collect 100 times value
(impossible with real insurance, but allowable in derivatives).
Sadly, loans have for long not been issued on ability to repay, but in
the hope of asset inflation. This started years ago when banks
started to loan to countries like Argentina. There are many questions
in this mess that defy your sensible thinking mate. It seems to make
no sense for banks to make loans they know are likely to fail - and
certainly not to kleptocrats like the ones who ran Argentina and still
run Greece. They piss the money up their own wall (Swiss bank
accounts etc.) - but what do the banks get in exchange. The answers
lie in knock-down prices in the fire sales and derivative hedges that
pay out on collapse. It's all to do with an excess of capital seeking
high returns. We need a return to high incomes related to work.
On Feb 25, 8:07 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Call it what you want. You can not loan money with out creating a way to
> repay the loan. And creating poverty is not a way to repay the loan.
> Allan
> ...> On Feb 24, 2012 7:20 PM, "archytas" <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > It's a strange thing that there is no problem bailing out the banks
> > who caused most of this misery - but the kind of thing Allan puts
> > forward immediately falls foul as 'subsidy'.
> > Assets are now being seized from Greece - something that once took
> > force of arms. My guess is we will see a communist revolution there -
> > it was only the stationing of British troops that stopped this after
> > WW2.
>
> > On Feb 24, 9:39 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Bail out money well it is poorly spent and the banking panel is totally
> > at
> > > fault. the bail out negation is simple.. all loans are put on hold
> > > no interest and no pay back, a no gain no loss situation. the total
> > > bailout funds need to be used to create employment and permanent jobs..
> > > maybe manufacturing smart phones,, or other products.. now those holding
> > > the paper well they have a simple choice either wiat till Greece
> > > is economic stability or lose all of their money..
>
> > > As for the negotiators demanding austerity measures. they to should face
> > > the music also with wage cuts equal to those faced by the poorest, also
> > > that their shopping bills must meet the inflation they have created and
> > > they must pay equal tax rates.. no choice. They need to face first hand
> > > the hardship they have intentionally created. with their lives and cost
> > > based on the hardship they created and it ends when the hardship they
> > > created.. Let them hear and face the music they have composed.. Time for
> > > the banksters and negotiator to pay the piper.
>
> > > When bail out funds are used to create permanent employment and those
> > that
> > > have not paid their taxes,, collect them no matter where they hid their
> > > money. then the bail out will start working..
> > > Allan
>
> > > On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 3:17 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > This situation has come about before. Prior to the Great Depression,
> > > > the Greek economy experienced years of growth, a healthy commercial
> > > > activity spree, and like today, a stark increase in (less-leveraged)
> > > > bank loans to finance it. When the Depression struck, banks and local
> > > > businesses faced unpayable loans and declining asset values. (Stop me
> > > > when this sounds familiar).Credit constricted immediately, choking
> > > > internal economic activity. In 1928, the Greek Drachma was tied to
> > > > the gold standard, but pegged to the British pound. When Britain
> > > > devalued its pound in 1931, the Greek government responded by raising
> > > > public investments and pegging the Drachma to the US dollar.
> > > > But by early 1932, central bank reserves had fallen so much that they
> > > > only backed 40% of Greek bonds. Even without the slow drip of rating
> > > > agency downgrades to highlight this leveraged debt situation (which is
> > > > nothing compared to say, today's US reserves vs. debt leverage), the
> > > > lack of reserves caused foreign speculators to fleece the Drachma/
> > > > dollar exchange rate. Bond yields blew out. Borrowing costs shot up.
> > > > So in March 1932, the League of Nations (the precursor bank bailout
> > > > entity to the ECB/IMF) agreed to provide a loan to service Greece's
> > > > debt in return for – wait for it - austerity measures. Unlike today,
> > > > the government said 'hell no.' Instead, in April, 1932, it floated the
> > > > Drachma - which devalued quickly. It also declared a public debt
> > > > moratorium, and increased infrastructure spending to strengthen its
> > > > economy. It negotiated repayment terms with creditors for overdue
> > > > interest. By 1934, agriculture and industrial production rose, the
> > > > currency was more stable, employment increased, and the budget
> > > > balanced.
>
> > > > Greece would have faired better if it had got out of this by default.
> > > > Don's point on the frustration we aren't doing enough generally is
> > > > what scares me. UK GDP has actually fallen more than that of Greece
> > > > since 2009! But what scares me is that I believe banks essentially
> > > > caused WW1 and its replay and seem even more in control now.
>
> > > > On Feb 24, 1:19 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Back to the Greeks, it appears they are being bailed out, but as far
> > > > > as I can see the money is going much like a version of TARP to
> > > > > European banks. Somewhere in all this some mighty big crooks have
> > had
> > > > > the original cash and we should be chasing them.
> > > > > I don't believe manufacturing can bring the jobs back though anything
> > > > > is welcome. We need new thinking on work and reward - though in the
> > > > > meantime we could introduce international service at decent wages to
> > > > > soak up the young and unemployed.
>
> > > > > On Feb 24, 1:08 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > What the banks did was lend money they didn't have - which perhaps
> > > > > > weirdly isn't wrong in-itself - if the demand for loans for
> > productive
> > > > > > purpose is there then why not make the loans in due diligence - we
> > all
> > > > > > benefit from the increased productive capacity produced. The
> > snag
> > > > > > was fraud and the banks were clearly incapable of resisting this
> > and
> > > > > > bribed politicians of all kinds to deregulate (the UK is worse than
> > > > > > the US on this) and allow massive leverage through fractional
> > > > > > banking. This happened everywhere once the ball started to roll.
> > It
> > > > > > all works if most of the investment is sound - but there is no
> > Black-
> > > > > > Scoles equation behind any of this. The problem with leverage was
> > > > > > well-known - the more fractional your capital (less of it in ratio
> > > > > > with what you lend) the more likely you end up insolvent if
> > anything
> > > > > > goes wrong. A few bad deals screw up your whole company. This is
> > the
> > > > > > truth - the rest is fraudulent accounting.
> > > > > > The idea stems from a business practice called 'discounting
> > cashflow'
> > > > > > - which is largely about talents story from the bible - you don't
> > just
> > > > > > bury your talents but employ them to purpose - good as far as it
> > goes
> > > > > > - but the ultimate source of 'talents' is the tax-payer and they
> > > > > > started to deploy our talents without asking. Indeed this was a
> > dodge
> > > > > > used to goldsmiths who lent money on the basis of other people's
> > gold
> > > > > > kept in their vaults. Fine as long as you never hit trouble and
> > have
> > > > > > to hand over the gold (tax-payers' money). At the micro-level I
> > can
> > > > > > tell you about companies so dumb they didn't bank money overnight
> > and
> > > > > > thus missed the interest this gleans. But all this went beyond
> > good
> > > > > > housekeeping.
> > > > > > The story would take a couple of pages to write even at this level
> > -
> > > > > > so I won't go on. At the heart if it banks were betting with out
> > > > > > money - the question we should now ask is who should own them -
> > and I
> > > > > > don't just mean the ones we directly bailed out.
>
> > > > > > On Feb 23, 12:29 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Sounds right to me. It is the current economic strategy in the
> > > > > > > Detroit region. Along with auto, there are medical, IT and
> > > > > > > alternative energy (won't mention defense) technologies being
> > > > > > > developed and manufactured. More and more of it. We have a
> > long way
> > > > > > > to go to come back but it has begun. going the distance will be
> > the
> > > > > > > challenge. A hall of fame basketball star for a mayor helps
> > foster
> > > > > > > that spirit.
>
> > > > > > > On Feb 23, 2:49 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > Am listening to the news, and have been thinking about china
> > an
> > > > apple and
> > > > > > > > their claim saying they own the IPad name or what ever .. but
> > I
> > > > listen to
> > > > > > > > a friend talk when he was employed by a chinese company was
> > just
> > > > how
> > > > > > > > dishonest they were in all areas.. Actually this claim by china
> > > > could
> > > > > > > > possibly really show this dishonesty and the effect or fall out
> > > > could be
> > > > > > > > bringing back manufacturing to out countries.
>
> > > > > > > > A manufacturing based economy can put the unemployed back to
> > work.
> > > > and the
> > > > > > > > unemployed working and buying national made products would make
> > > > for a
> > > > > > > > healthy economy. I am probably saying this wrong.
> > > > > > > > Allan
>
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 8:39 AM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com
>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > I do think there is revolution in the air as people, some one
> > > > is going to
> > > > > > > > > overcome banking dilemma,, I do believe that the bail out is
> > > > just how to
> > > > > > > > > rip as much money out of Greece as possible,
> > > > > > > > > Allan
>
> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 4:28 AM, Don Johnson <
> > daj...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > >> Reminds me of an old Heavy Metal quote.
>
> > > > > > > > >> "He's nothing but a low-down, double-dealing, backstabbing,
> > > > larcenous
> > > > > > > > >> perverted worm! Hanging's too good for him. Burning's too
> > good
> > > > for him! He
> > > > > > > > >> should be torn into little bitsy pieces and buried alive!"
>
> > > > > > > > >> -Hanover Fiste
>
> > > > > > > > >> We share frustrations Neil. What little being done is either
> > > > wrong or
> > > > > > > > >> inadequate. You have a much broader understanding of the
> > > > banking bail outs
> > > > > > > > >> than I do. I resent having to bail them out as a tax payer
> > > > while at the
> > > > > > > > >> same time not being able to profit from buying property at a
> > > > much
> > > > > > > > >> discounted price because the bailouts
>
>
> read more »
(
Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
it was announced by the Fuhrer-country now in charge of continental
Europe. If we were personally holding Greek bonds they would be
asking us to take a 65% loss. We might have those bonds hedged via
CDS and be able to take 100% on this insurance should Greece default.
We might not decline the offer, but hedge funds like bought these
binds at discount and hedged via CDS. They will want a Greek
collpase. Standard and Poor has just announced it expects this.
Should we worry? I think so. The question is who 'owns' the
obligation to payout CDS and how much of that there is. Ridiculous as
it sounds Allan this is very much like insuring your house 100 times
over and being able to burn it down and collect 100 times value
(impossible with real insurance, but allowable in derivatives).
Sadly, loans have for long not been issued on ability to repay, but in
the hope of asset inflation. This started years ago when banks
started to loan to countries like Argentina. There are many questions
in this mess that defy your sensible thinking mate. It seems to make
no sense for banks to make loans they know are likely to fail - and
certainly not to kleptocrats like the ones who ran Argentina and still
run Greece. They piss the money up their own wall (Swiss bank
accounts etc.) - but what do the banks get in exchange. The answers
lie in knock-down prices in the fire sales and derivative hedges that
pay out on collapse. It's all to do with an excess of capital seeking
high returns. We need a return to high incomes related to work.
On Feb 25, 8:07 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Call it what you want. You can not loan money with out creating a way to
> repay the loan. And creating poverty is not a way to repay the loan.
> Allan
> On Feb 24, 2012 7:20 PM, "archytas" <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > It's a strange thing that there is no problem bailing out the banks
> > who caused most of this misery - but the kind of thing Allan puts
> > forward immediately falls foul as 'subsidy'.
> > Assets are now being seized from Greece - something that once took
> > force of arms. My guess is we will see a communist revolution there -
> > it was only the stationing of British troops that stopped this after
> > WW2.
>
> > On Feb 24, 9:39 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Bail out money well it is poorly spent and the banking panel is totally
> > at
> > > fault. the bail out negation is simple.. all loans are put on hold
> > > no interest and no pay back, a no gain no loss situation. the total
> > > bailout funds need to be used to create employment and permanent jobs..
> > > maybe manufacturing smart phones,, or other products.. now those holding
> > > the paper well they have a simple choice either wiat till Greece
> > > is economic stability or lose all of their money..
>
> > > As for the negotiators demanding austerity measures. they to should face
> > > the music also with wage cuts equal to those faced by the poorest, also
> > > that their shopping bills must meet the inflation they have created and
> > > they must pay equal tax rates.. no choice. They need to face first hand
> > > the hardship they have intentionally created. with their lives and cost
> > > based on the hardship they created and it ends when the hardship they
> > > created.. Let them hear and face the music they have composed.. Time for
> > > the banksters and negotiator to pay the piper.
>
> > > When bail out funds are used to create permanent employment and those
> > that
> > > have not paid their taxes,, collect them no matter where they hid their
> > > money. then the bail out will start working..
> > > Allan
>
> > > On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 3:17 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > This situation has come about before. Prior to the Great Depression,
> > > > the Greek economy experienced years of growth, a healthy commercial
> > > > activity spree, and like today, a stark increase in (less-leveraged)
> > > > bank loans to finance it. When the Depression struck, banks and local
> > > > businesses faced unpayable loans and declining asset values. (Stop me
> > > > when this sounds familiar).Credit constricted immediately, choking
> > > > internal economic activity. In 1928, the Greek Drachma was tied to
> > > > the gold standard, but pegged to the British pound. When Britain
> > > > devalued its pound in 1931, the Greek government responded by raising
> > > > public investments and pegging the Drachma to the US dollar.
> > > > But by early 1932, central bank reserves had fallen so much that they
> > > > only backed 40% of Greek bonds. Even without the slow drip of rating
> > > > agency downgrades to highlight this leveraged debt situation (which is
> > > > nothing compared to say, today's US reserves vs. debt leverage), the
> > > > lack of reserves caused foreign speculators to fleece the Drachma/
> > > > dollar exchange rate. Bond yields blew out. Borrowing costs shot up.
> > > > So in March 1932, the League of Nations (the precursor bank bailout
> > > > entity to the ECB/IMF) agreed to provide a loan to service Greece's
> > > > debt in return for – wait for it - austerity measures. Unlike today,
> > > > the government said 'hell no.' Instead, in April, 1932, it floated the
> > > > Drachma - which devalued quickly. It also declared a public debt
> > > > moratorium, and increased infrastructure spending to strengthen its
> > > > economy. It negotiated repayment terms with creditors for overdue
> > > > interest. By 1934, agriculture and industrial production rose, the
> > > > currency was more stable, employment increased, and the budget
> > > > balanced.
>
> > > > Greece would have faired better if it had got out of this by default.
> > > > Don's point on the frustration we aren't doing enough generally is
> > > > what scares me. UK GDP has actually fallen more than that of Greece
> > > > since 2009! But what scares me is that I believe banks essentially
> > > > caused WW1 and its replay and seem even more in control now.
>
> > > > On Feb 24, 1:19 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Back to the Greeks, it appears they are being bailed out, but as far
> > > > > as I can see the money is going much like a version of TARP to
> > > > > European banks. Somewhere in all this some mighty big crooks have
> > had
> > > > > the original cash and we should be chasing them.
> > > > > I don't believe manufacturing can bring the jobs back though anything
> > > > > is welcome. We need new thinking on work and reward - though in the
> > > > > meantime we could introduce international service at decent wages to
> > > > > soak up the young and unemployed.
>
> > > > > On Feb 24, 1:08 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > What the banks did was lend money they didn't have - which perhaps
> > > > > > weirdly isn't wrong in-itself - if the demand for loans for
> > productive
> > > > > > purpose is there then why not make the loans in due diligence - we
> > all
> > > > > > benefit from the increased productive capacity produced. The
> > snag
> > > > > > was fraud and the banks were clearly incapable of resisting this
> > and
> > > > > > bribed politicians of all kinds to deregulate (the UK is worse than
> > > > > > the US on this) and allow massive leverage through fractional
> > > > > > banking. This happened everywhere once the ball started to roll.
> > It
> > > > > > all works if most of the investment is sound - but there is no
> > Black-
> > > > > > Scoles equation behind any of this. The problem with leverage was
> > > > > > well-known - the more fractional your capital (less of it in ratio
> > > > > > with what you lend) the more likely you end up insolvent if
> > anything
> > > > > > goes wrong. A few bad deals screw up your whole company. This is
> > the
> > > > > > truth - the rest is fraudulent accounting.
> > > > > > The idea stems from a business practice called 'discounting
> > cashflow'
> > > > > > - which is largely about talents story from the bible - you don't
> > just
> > > > > > bury your talents but employ them to purpose - good as far as it
> > goes
> > > > > > - but the ultimate source of 'talents' is the tax-payer and they
> > > > > > started to deploy our talents without asking. Indeed this was a
> > dodge
> > > > > > used to goldsmiths who lent money on the basis of other people's
> > gold
> > > > > > kept in their vaults. Fine as long as you never hit trouble and
> > have
> > > > > > to hand over the gold (tax-payers' money). At the micro-level I
> > can
> > > > > > tell you about companies so dumb they didn't bank money overnight
> > and
> > > > > > thus missed the interest this gleans. But all this went beyond
> > good
> > > > > > housekeeping.
> > > > > > The story would take a couple of pages to write even at this level
> > -
> > > > > > so I won't go on. At the heart if it banks were betting with out
> > > > > > money - the question we should now ask is who should own them -
> > and I
> > > > > > don't just mean the ones we directly bailed out.
>
> > > > > > On Feb 23, 12:29 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Sounds right to me. It is the current economic strategy in the
> > > > > > > Detroit region. Along with auto, there are medical, IT and
> > > > > > > alternative energy (won't mention defense) technologies being
> > > > > > > developed and manufactured. More and more of it. We have a
> > long way
> > > > > > > to go to come back but it has begun. going the distance will be
> > the
> > > > > > > challenge. A hall of fame basketball star for a mayor helps
> > foster
> > > > > > > that spirit.
>
> > > > > > > On Feb 23, 2:49 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > Am listening to the news, and have been thinking about china
> > an
> > > > apple and
> > > > > > > > their claim saying they own the IPad name or what ever .. but
> > I
> > > > listen to
> > > > > > > > a friend talk when he was employed by a chinese company was
> > just
> > > > how
> > > > > > > > dishonest they were in all areas.. Actually this claim by china
> > > > could
> > > > > > > > possibly really show this dishonesty and the effect or fall out
> > > > could be
> > > > > > > > bringing back manufacturing to out countries.
>
> > > > > > > > A manufacturing based economy can put the unemployed back to
> > work.
> > > > and the
> > > > > > > > unemployed working and buying national made products would make
> > > > for a
> > > > > > > > healthy economy. I am probably saying this wrong.
> > > > > > > > Allan
>
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 8:39 AM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com
>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > I do think there is revolution in the air as people, some one
> > > > is going to
> > > > > > > > > overcome banking dilemma,, I do believe that the bail out is
> > > > just how to
> > > > > > > > > rip as much money out of Greece as possible,
> > > > > > > > > Allan
>
> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 4:28 AM, Don Johnson <
> > daj...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > >> Reminds me of an old Heavy Metal quote.
>
> > > > > > > > >> "He's nothing but a low-down, double-dealing, backstabbing,
> > > > larcenous
> > > > > > > > >> perverted worm! Hanging's too good for him. Burning's too
> > good
> > > > for him! He
> > > > > > > > >> should be torn into little bitsy pieces and buried alive!"
>
> > > > > > > > >> -Hanover Fiste
>
> > > > > > > > >> We share frustrations Neil. What little being done is either
> > > > wrong or
> > > > > > > > >> inadequate. You have a much broader understanding of the
> > > > banking bail outs
> > > > > > > > >> than I do. I resent having to bail them out as a tax payer
> > > > while at the
> > > > > > > > >> same time not being able to profit from buying property at a
> > > > much
> > > > > > > > >> discounted price because the bailouts
>
> ...
>
> read more »
from whose mind the entire Creation emanates. As all beings animate or
inanimate have sprung from him , although in a natural way, I regard
Him as the Soul of all.
On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 12:19 PM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't disagree with Molly, though I was just presenting what her
> words 'rang' in me. My belief is that consciousness in used too
> infrequently - the basics of the mess of our communities and people is
> unconscious and broadly animal (the mess includes some good stuff).
> Consciousness is too easily overcome by cunning, and, as Molly says,
> narcissism.
> What has struck me for a long time is how difficult it is to present
> argument because it's too difficult to get anyone to take part
> 'honestly' - this is particularly difficult for teachers these days!
> In some areas, I have stopped thinking in standard ways - gender is an
> example. I tend to see in terms of certain types being fascinated by
> trinkets, fashion, gossip - one could imagine a shaggy dog story here
> in which these types all turn out to be women - but honestly that's
> not what I mean. I'm not interested in my identity as a man - but in
> terms of what I'm able to be and do - maleness is largely a
> constraint, animal and not much I want. The opportunities for
> identity seem very much off-the-peg and already detailed to copy. One
> modern identity that interests me is that of the 'empty creditor' -
> those who bring bankruptcy about through derivatives wangles. Some of
> my students clearly see such as models to copy - shrewd in money-
> making. The image of this identity in me is more one of the vile
> usurer demanding sex through threats of eviction in silent film. The
> apparatchiks quickly became entrepreneurchiks once Soviet rhetoric
> gave way to World Bank trash. There is surely a false individualism
> that is merely chameleon-like? And soul is denied RP. I suspect mine
> troubles me and I don't not welcome that given what I see around me!
>
> On Feb 26, 3:53 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The thes [THEs] that define this may come in undivided by duality, what
>> they have been multiplied with is to be experienced nevertheless.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 3:25 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > The one who is aware of oneself and the others is the individual --
>> > and that cannot be without consciousness. The one that is unconscious
>> > is not an individual but the Soul from which all the individualities
>> > emanate. The identity is just the covering of an individuality.
>>
>> > On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 7:33 PM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > Ideas of identity are related to matter - I allow that to happen every
>> > > night.
>>
>> > > On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 2:40 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > >> I know my view is not that of the world.. if it was there would have
>> > >> been massive changes long ago,, the best I can hope for is to ask the
>> > right
>> > >> questions, throw out some ideas,, in talking with young people and
>> > >> hopefully they may start thinking and come up with ideas that they
>> > might be
>> > >> able to bring about change.. they are the one that have the
>> > responsibility
>> > >> now. My role at best would be of that of an elder.
>>
>> > >> I do know you can not pay off debt with more debt. all though people
>> > will
>> > >> try to convince you that you can do it with poverty. whether they like
>> > it or
>> > >> not their souls are at risk.
>>
>> > >> Our ideas need to be put out there for examination whether they are
>> > right
>> > >> or wrong, it doesn't matter..
>> > >> Allan
>>
>> > >> On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > >>> If what is on either side of the equal sign goes both ways, your
>> > >>> interpretation of my statement would be accurate. I think I was
>> > >>> saying that we confuse our world view for what is in actuality, our
>> > >>> individual view. In other words, we sometimes think the whole world
>> > >>> has a view that is actually just ours in the moment. There is a
>> > >>> narcissistic psychology to this that seems to be prevalent in those
>> > >>> that need to feel themselves "right" or superior or more powerful.
>> > >>> I've also found it interesting that everyone else in the room can
>> > >>> sometimes see it, but the person espousing. A good absurd joke can
>> > >>> bust through that illusion and humble us in a way that brings us to
>> > >>> the point of knowing that we know nothing, it is all a matter of view.
>>
>> > >>> To discuss individuality, we should probably discuss identity, which
>> > >>> is what the narcissist will defend to the end, needing to be right,
>> > >>> see others as wrong and so on. How we create our identities has a
>> > >>> direct relationship to consciousness, because as more of our
>> > >>> consciousness is found in the infinite, and less in limitations, we
>> > >>> quite naturally let go of our stories, identity, our values - and they
>> > >>> are aligned with the eternal. We are by design, both finite and
>> > >>> infinite. Our identities are steeped in duality and limitation.
>> > >>> After a long day a work, a good comedy routine can help shed all the
>> > >>> tensions of the day, and restore my harmony. Resting my(our)self(ves)
>> > >>> in the paradox of the one and the many brings a good nights sleep.
>>
>> > >>> On Feb 24, 4:06 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >>> > Molly made the point in another thread that we conflate individuality
>> > >>> > with what is really a world-view. Most of us like to think we have
>> > >>> > a good quota of individuality - but then express this as dedicated
>> > >>> > followers of fashion. I know as a teacher that trying to set up
>> > >>> > lessons that students really take hold of and do their own thing in
>> > >>> > relies an having some pretty unusual people in. Most students claim
>> > >>> > to want to do their own thing, but the vast majority will do no
>> > >>> > constructive work (even against my open standards on what this can
>> > be)
>> > >>> > if they have to organise it themselves. US society is often claimed
>> > >>> > to be the most individualistic in the world - yet look at the
>> > >>> > organisation in American Football.
>>
>> > >>> > My own view is that our lack of individuality actually arises from
>> > the
>> > >>> > promulgation of celebrity, either as in mad political cults or via
>> > >>> > 'International Hollywood'. An example of the first is North Korea
>> > >>> > and, of course, we are the prime example of the latter. In our case,
>> > >>> > the ready-to-hand of ADMASS means we have almost no real public
>> > >>> > dialogue as everything is mediated through the crass world view and
>> > >>> > most people have soaked this up as their individuality. Quine made
>> > >>> > the point long ago that the notion of evidence is difficult because
>> > of
>> > >>> > something like this. People think the evidence has come from the
>> > >>> > outside, when in fact they only deal with what has impinged and
>> > >>> > networked in the world-view they have soaked up.
>>
>> > >>> > There's a classic example of this about at the moment. It's debt and
>> > >>> > the way we construe the term in the way we think about household debt
>> > >>> > as the same as this economic-bankster stuff. Normal dialogue is
>> > >>> > impossible because most people can't understand the language because
>> > >>> > they have never invested the effort to get beyond an imprinted self.
>>
>> > >>> > Much has been written on this, usually under the guise of paradigms -
>> > >>> > with the idea that we can learn different ones in external language.
>> > >>> > This seems a non-starter for me, as at least 85% of "language" is
>> > non-
>> > >>> > verbal and huge amounts manipulative. I would contend that
>> > >>> > individualism is the curse of our times and exemplified by such
>> > >>> > discussions as whether bankers and sports stars are worth their
>> > riches
>> > >>> > - always discussed in the paradigm of an individual meritocracy that
>> > >>> > goes unchallenged. From other perspectives the presence of these
>> > >>> > "individuals" is evidence of what they system produces and reason
>> > >>> > enough to change it.
>>
>> > >> --
>> > >> (
>> > >> )
>> > >> |_D Allan
>>
>> > >> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_374_en.pdf - it
shows we all recognise there's a lot of it about. 98% of Greeks have
- which tends me to conclude the rest of us will catch up when we
realise more of our money has been vapourised!
On Feb 20, 6:45 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It is called corruption Neil.. I just received the interest on my AMX a
> massive 0% aka $0.00 I am one of the suckers that paid their excessive
> interest rate.. and we wonder why they are billionaires.
> Allan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 4:49 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Some way on from this we have the scandal of insider trading by the
> > government establishment - the classic paper on the US is - *The
> > study, "Abnormal Returns from the Common Stock Investments of the U.S.
> > Senate, Alan J. Ziobrowski, Ping Cheng, James W, Boyd, and
> > Brigitte J. Ziobrowski, was published in the Journal of Financial and
> > Quantitative Analysis (Dec. 2004) - we all think this is wrong, but
> > despite proof (Senators and so on beat the market by 12% which should
> > be impossible) nothing gets done.
>
> > On Feb 19, 5:40 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Yes- I have seen/read about this. It depends on the nurture and
> > > envionment. Some are lucky to survive their childhood- their
> > > adulthood- and make it to old age in one piece with peace of heart and
> > > mind! And don't take my money! :-)
>
> > > On Feb 18, 5:29 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > "We think children are born with a skeleton of general expectations
> > > > about fairness," explains Sloane, "and these principles and concepts
> > > > get shaped in different ways depending on the culture and the
> > > > environment they're brought up in." Some cultures value sharing more
> > > > than others, but the ideas that resources should be equally
> > > > distributed and rewards allocated according to effort are innate and
> > > > universal.
> > > > Other survival instincts can intervene. Self-interest is one, as is
> > > > loyalty to the in-group -- your family, your tribe, your team. It's
> > > > much harder to abide by that abstract sense of fairness when you want
> > > > all the cookies -- or your team is hungry. That's why children need
> > > > reminders to share and practice in the discipline of doing the right
> > > > thing in spite of their desires.
> > > > Still, says Sloane, "helping children behave more morally may not be
> > > > as hard as it would be if they didn't have that skeleton of
> > > > expectations."
> > > > This innate moral sense might also explain the power of early trauma,
> > > > Sloane says. Aside from fairness, research has shown that small
> > > > children expect people not to harm others and to help others in
> > > > distress. "If they witness events that violate those expectations in
> > > > extreme ways, it could explain why these events have such negative and
> > > > enduring consequences."
>
> > > > The above is from a recent Science Digest. It's really this kind of
> > > > morality I think might help us in forming an economics. Doing the
> > > > right thing in spite of desires. What we need, of course, is more
> > > > understanding of how we violate this childishness as rationalising
> > > > adults.
>
> --
> (
> )
> |_D Allan
>
> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
words 'rang' in me. My belief is that consciousness in used too
infrequently - the basics of the mess of our communities and people is
unconscious and broadly animal (the mess includes some good stuff).
Consciousness is too easily overcome by cunning, and, as Molly says,
narcissism.
What has struck me for a long time is how difficult it is to present
argument because it's too difficult to get anyone to take part
'honestly' - this is particularly difficult for teachers these days!
In some areas, I have stopped thinking in standard ways - gender is an
example. I tend to see in terms of certain types being fascinated by
trinkets, fashion, gossip - one could imagine a shaggy dog story here
in which these types all turn out to be women - but honestly that's
not what I mean. I'm not interested in my identity as a man - but in
terms of what I'm able to be and do - maleness is largely a
constraint, animal and not much I want. The opportunities for
identity seem very much off-the-peg and already detailed to copy. One
modern identity that interests me is that of the 'empty creditor' -
those who bring bankruptcy about through derivatives wangles. Some of
my students clearly see such as models to copy - shrewd in money-
making. The image of this identity in me is more one of the vile
usurer demanding sex through threats of eviction in silent film. The
apparatchiks quickly became entrepreneurchiks once Soviet rhetoric
gave way to World Bank trash. There is surely a false individualism
that is merely chameleon-like? And soul is denied RP. I suspect mine
troubles me and I don't not welcome that given what I see around me!
On Feb 26, 3:53 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The thes [THEs] that define this may come in undivided by duality, what
> they have been multiplied with is to be experienced nevertheless.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 3:25 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The one who is aware of oneself and the others is the individual --
> > and that cannot be without consciousness. The one that is unconscious
> > is not an individual but the Soul from which all the individualities
> > emanate. The identity is just the covering of an individuality.
>
> > On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 7:33 PM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Ideas of identity are related to matter - I allow that to happen every
> > > night.
>
> > > On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 2:40 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >> I know my view is not that of the world.. if it was there would have
> > >> been massive changes long ago,, the best I can hope for is to ask the
> > right
> > >> questions, throw out some ideas,, in talking with young people and
> > >> hopefully they may start thinking and come up with ideas that they
> > might be
> > >> able to bring about change.. they are the one that have the
> > responsibility
> > >> now. My role at best would be of that of an elder.
>
> > >> I do know you can not pay off debt with more debt. all though people
> > will
> > >> try to convince you that you can do it with poverty. whether they like
> > it or
> > >> not their souls are at risk.
>
> > >> Our ideas need to be put out there for examination whether they are
> > right
> > >> or wrong, it doesn't matter..
> > >> Allan
>
> > >> On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >>> If what is on either side of the equal sign goes both ways, your
> > >>> interpretation of my statement would be accurate. I think I was
> > >>> saying that we confuse our world view for what is in actuality, our
> > >>> individual view. In other words, we sometimes think the whole world
> > >>> has a view that is actually just ours in the moment. There is a
> > >>> narcissistic psychology to this that seems to be prevalent in those
> > >>> that need to feel themselves "right" or superior or more powerful.
> > >>> I've also found it interesting that everyone else in the room can
> > >>> sometimes see it, but the person espousing. A good absurd joke can
> > >>> bust through that illusion and humble us in a way that brings us to
> > >>> the point of knowing that we know nothing, it is all a matter of view.
>
> > >>> To discuss individuality, we should probably discuss identity, which
> > >>> is what the narcissist will defend to the end, needing to be right,
> > >>> see others as wrong and so on. How we create our identities has a
> > >>> direct relationship to consciousness, because as more of our
> > >>> consciousness is found in the infinite, and less in limitations, we
> > >>> quite naturally let go of our stories, identity, our values - and they
> > >>> are aligned with the eternal. We are by design, both finite and
> > >>> infinite. Our identities are steeped in duality and limitation.
> > >>> After a long day a work, a good comedy routine can help shed all the
> > >>> tensions of the day, and restore my harmony. Resting my(our)self(ves)
> > >>> in the paradox of the one and the many brings a good nights sleep.
>
> > >>> On Feb 24, 4:06 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>> > Molly made the point in another thread that we conflate individuality
> > >>> > with what is really a world-view. Most of us like to think we have
> > >>> > a good quota of individuality - but then express this as dedicated
> > >>> > followers of fashion. I know as a teacher that trying to set up
> > >>> > lessons that students really take hold of and do their own thing in
> > >>> > relies an having some pretty unusual people in. Most students claim
> > >>> > to want to do their own thing, but the vast majority will do no
> > >>> > constructive work (even against my open standards on what this can
> > be)
> > >>> > if they have to organise it themselves. US society is often claimed
> > >>> > to be the most individualistic in the world - yet look at the
> > >>> > organisation in American Football.
>
> > >>> > My own view is that our lack of individuality actually arises from
> > the
> > >>> > promulgation of celebrity, either as in mad political cults or via
> > >>> > 'International Hollywood'. An example of the first is North Korea
> > >>> > and, of course, we are the prime example of the latter. In our case,
> > >>> > the ready-to-hand of ADMASS means we have almost no real public
> > >>> > dialogue as everything is mediated through the crass world view and
> > >>> > most people have soaked this up as their individuality. Quine made
> > >>> > the point long ago that the notion of evidence is difficult because
> > of
> > >>> > something like this. People think the evidence has come from the
> > >>> > outside, when in fact they only deal with what has impinged and
> > >>> > networked in the world-view they have soaked up.
>
> > >>> > There's a classic example of this about at the moment. It's debt and
> > >>> > the way we construe the term in the way we think about household debt
> > >>> > as the same as this economic-bankster stuff. Normal dialogue is
> > >>> > impossible because most people can't understand the language because
> > >>> > they have never invested the effort to get beyond an imprinted self.
>
> > >>> > Much has been written on this, usually under the guise of paradigms -
> > >>> > with the idea that we can learn different ones in external language.
> > >>> > This seems a non-starter for me, as at least 85% of "language" is
> > non-
> > >>> > verbal and huge amounts manipulative. I would contend that
> > >>> > individualism is the curse of our times and exemplified by such
> > >>> > discussions as whether bankers and sports stars are worth their
> > riches
> > >>> > - always discussed in the paradigm of an individual meritocracy that
> > >>> > goes unchallenged. From other perspectives the presence of these
> > >>> > "individuals" is evidence of what they system produces and reason
> > >>> > enough to change it.
>
> > >> --
> > >> (
> > >> )
> > >> |_D Allan
>
> > >> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.