On Sep 1, 2:55 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You are forgetting genetics and possibly early upbringing that has
> influenced who you have become. Okay- I will thank your parents for
> making you possible! :-)
>
> On Aug 31, 6:34 am, Lee Douglas <leerevdoug...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Indeed OM indeed.
>
> > I asked once or perhaps twice or even thrice what is it about human
> > life that many see as sacrosanct, I don't see life that way at all and
> > so it confussed me why again the majority of us would view the takeing
> > of a human life by another human as immoral.
>
> > I guess I'm just in a strange place at the mo, beliving in a creator
> > God without beliving that life is somehow sacred.
>
> > I can see both sides though, I think most would thank their parents
> > for the 'gift' of life, but I can certianly understand why some would
> > not.
>
> > Myself I'm a little differant. I had no choice about my birth and so
> > I neither thank nor revile my parents for their choice in makeing me.
> > I mean I, Lee, the human and the soul and the mind that makes up the
> > indivudual we call Lee, had nowt to do with my birth.
>
> > It was my parents choice, and their desire to have kids, I know this
> > desire, I think most of us humans do at some point or other in our
> > lives.
>
> > Now of course I have two teenage boys, I don't ask them for their
> > thanks, not for mine and my wifes desires, our choice. We did not
> > gift them with life, we simply followed our own wills.
>
> > No I'm more intersted in arming them for their own lifes, so that they
> > can make their own choices independant of me and their mum. They are
> > not really my kids but humans that own their own lifes.
>
> > On Aug 31, 11:53 am, ornamentalmind <ornsmindseyes...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > "…Those born into abject poverty or under the rule of a despot may
> > > not
> > > see their life as agift at all. " – Lee
>
> > > Conversely, those born into affluence or under the rule of an
> > > enlightened and benevolent leader may not see their life as a gift
> > > either.
>
> > > On Aug 31, 3:50 am, Lee Douglas <leerevdoug...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Indeed that is the way I see it, but of course others may not.
>
> > > > Those born into abject poverty or under the rule of a despot may not
> > > > see their life as agift at all.
>
> > > > On Aug 31, 5:29 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Yes- but there are so many ironies and surprises and turn-abouts in
> > > > > life that it offers possibilities, as well. It still is a chance
> > > > > given.
>
> > > > > On Aug 30, 9:47 am, Lee Douglas <leerevdoug...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Heh and of course there is an argument to be made that life is no gift
> > > > > > at all!
>
> > > > > > On Aug 30, 2:59 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Yes- a lively topic! The whole matter rests upon the spirit in which
> > > > > > > the gift is given or received and it can get tangled up in some pretty
> > > > > > > strange emotions!
>
> > > > > > > We can never repay parents for the gift of life.
>
> > > > > > > I have sometimes given a gift to get rid of a person! And it
> > > > > > > works! :-)
>
> > > > > > > "The moon belongs to everyone, the best things in life are
> > > > > > > free" (song)
>
> > > > > > > On Aug 30, 4:46 am, Lee Douglas <leerevdoug...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > Hey Neil,
>
> > > > > > > > The word debt is a good one to bring to the convo. It is ridden with
> > > > > > > > subjective morality. I think it true to say that nobody likes to be
> > > > > > > > indebted to anybody, and that payment of debt whether that be fiscal
> > > > > > > > or favours owed, is paramont for the individual to feel free from debt
> > > > > > > > agian.
>
> > > > > > > > Of course the corraspanding thought is that the individual can also
> > > > > > > > feel empowerd by the depts owed to that person. It is like a slavery
> > > > > > > > light. If a man buys you a beer you remember it and do not rest untll
> > > > > > > > you have returned the favour. If a freind helps you to move it is
> > > > > > > > perfectly exceptable to ask of him the same favour when you in turn
> > > > > > > > move.
>
> > > > > > > > I think it goes deep, I mean real deeply deep in the human physche.
>
> > > > > > > > When one welches on a bet, or refuses to repay a favour then that
> > > > > > > > person is not thought highly of.
>
> > > > > > > > It ties in nice and neatly with my thoughts on individual freedom, and
> > > > > > > > the fettering of choice.
>
> > > > > > > > On Aug 27, 6:50 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > Nietzsche argued (in front of the bourgeois) that bourgeois morality
> > > > > > > > > was all based on the ability to use violence to recover debt. I take
> > > > > > > > > it his play was ironic, much as Kierkegaard on Xtianity. To abandon
> > > > > > > > > morality and ethics in order to do the best we can in practical
> > > > > > > > > circumstances is a move from generality to particularism and 'low and
> > > > > > > > > behold' the matter is somewhat ironic as we discover morality and
> > > > > > > > > ethics in the particular. We might, for instance, be generally
> > > > > > > > > against abortion, but leave this generality aside in considering a
> > > > > > > > > rape victim wanting one - indeed we should go further and wonder what
> > > > > > > > > role morality and ethics play in the decision that we have any 'right'
> > > > > > > > > to be considering a decision many of us think the woman concerned
> > > > > > > > > should be able to make and expect only our support in it - that is
> > > > > > > > > help with her distress.
>
> > > > > > > > > In German philosophy after Hegel, there was much attempt to 'free
> > > > > > > > > thought' from Geist and what we might call 'socially approved
> > > > > > > > > epistemic authority' (which we might corrupt to 'moralising') - one
> > > > > > > > > can draw the line through Fichte, Feuerbach, Nietzsche and on to
> > > > > > > > > Stirner - the problem always being how there could ever be an
> > > > > > > > > association of individuals free of morals and ethics - the answer
> > > > > > > > > usually being that some subjective awareness-analysis could replace
> > > > > > > > > social authority. This is not exactly new to those of us with some
> > > > > > > > > notion of self-discipline, and notions of govern-mentality or the
> > > > > > > > > creation of 'docile bodies' worry on just hoe 'subjective' we can be
> > > > > > > > > in this sense.
>
> > > > > > > > > The question is probably about how we can get into meaningful review
> > > > > > > > > of what is deeply and potentially wrongly held. A good example would
> > > > > > > > > be that most of us think debt should be repaid. We can hold this view
> > > > > > > > > with great certainty and even think it immoral not to repay. Yet what
> > > > > > > > > is human history on this? I can point to a recent book that
> > > > > > > > > demonstrates history is full of corrections or Jubilee on debt - even
> > > > > > > > > that the first word we know for freedom means 'freedom from debt' and
> > > > > > > > > that many religious words come from the word debt as sin - in the
> > > > > > > > > sense of freedom from it. The very notion of our definition of debt
> > > > > > > > > is historically wrong and de-politicised when it should not be. We
> > > > > > > > > can abandon what we have come to think is moral and ethical about debt
> > > > > > > > > and perhaps recover something 'more moral' in understanding history.
> > > > > > > > > The book is readable at Amazon - Debt by David Graeber - at least in
> > > > > > > > > its essentials. Much as we might abandon moral and ethics, we could
> > > > > > > > > abandon 'money' - though we no doubt come round to a better
> > > > > > > > > formulation in new practice. There is always some kind of 'return' -
> > > > > > > > > but where are we without trying our best in thinking things through -
> > > > > > > > > left with global poverty and indenture? Hardly much 'morality' in
> > > > > > > > > that.
>
> > > > > > > > > On Aug 26, 3:15 pm, Lee Douglas <leerevdoug...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > Hahahah yes Rigsy I find I can't disagree with you here at all. Makes
> > > > > > > > > > a change huh!
>
> > > > > > > > > > On Aug 26, 2:40 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > Yes, Lee. A sense of fairness and right/wrong seems to kick in
> > > > > > > > > > > naturally in very young children- even more remarkable when you think
> > > > > > > > > > > what they are up against re adults and their siblings, but then the
> > > > > > > > > > > "teaching" begins "in earnest" via family, education, religion,
> > > > > > > > > > > society. Most often, humans adapt to standards and expectations
> > > > > > > > > > > because they assume it's safer and easier- they can work out the
> > > > > > > > > > > conflicts with a therapist later on. :-)
>
> > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 26, 4:49 am, Lee Douglas <leerevdoug...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > Obvioulsy I have to strongly disagree with that. Anybody who thinks
> > > > > > > > > > > > that morality comes from religion is not thinking straight.
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > My own morality was there long before I even heard of deity, and the
> > > > > > > > > > > > same is true for all of us. Yes yes of course religious faith may
> > > > > > > > > > > > colour or change ones morality, but then what does not? Culture does,
> > > > > > > > > > > > the epoch we live in does, nationality does, even age.
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 25, 5:52 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > A guy called Max Stirner wrote an odd book with the intent to outline
> > > > > > > > > > > > > what being free of religion might mean. Rigsby's professor seems
> > > > > > > > > > > > > unaware of how old his ground is in more recent debate than the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Greeks. My
>
> ...
>
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>
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Rigsy you are correct, of course. ;¬0
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