[Mind's Eye] Re: Self Fulfilling Hypnoses

The best example of human cooperation is a symphony orchestra! :-)

On Sep 21, 4:21 am, Lee Douglas <leerevdoug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Heh James rose tinted glasses, well I don't really know you so you'll
> excuse me if I do not make that call right now.  Hahhah or perhaps the
> oposite is true of me?  Can it be that I view the world through shit
> tinted glasses?
>
> It could be, but honestly I may come off as that kind of human, but I
> am in fact quite the glass is half full kinda bloke.
>
> Yes most of us would bend over backwards to help our family and
> friends, how many of us regulary give to charities though, or how many
> of us would step in to stop an other human being attacked in the
> street?
>
> As I say we for the most part very sheep like, we follow gladly, now
> then we need strong moral leadership.  Find that man or woman, and the
> rest will I belive flow more easily.
>
> Hahah yes how to phrase it without appearing to be full of my own self
> importance?
>
> The standard cry of the intelecual human, people are largly idiots, or
> rather we seem to contain amongst us a small percantage of those
> propered to really think about things.  Ho hum and the world turns.
>
> On Sep 21, 5:13 am, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 4:25 AM, Lee Douglas <leerevdoug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Not  even that James, merely an example of how people differ and how
> > > ideas differ and even how peoples perception of the same ideas differ.
>
> > > Let us take it right back.
>
> > > You said:
>
> > > 'I believe in cradle to the grave social securities, and that is
> > > something that should be on offer. People will work for these things,
> > > make sacrifices, and likely be happy about it if they have a sense of
> > > it helping to strengthen society. I think many people would work
> > > harder and even be willing to work smarter if there were tangible
> > > results, if that work pays into the social securities and societal
> > > infrastructure and benefits the individual at the same time- what more
> > > could one ask for?'
>
> > > My reply was saying no I do not belive that people will work for these
> > > things, make sacrifices or likely be happy about it.  I meantion our
> > > history of how communisim has worked or failed to over the last 70 odd
> > > years as an example of both the priciples you mention, and the way in
> > > which humanity approaches them.
>
> > > It is clear that many people will not work harder or make sacrifices
> > > even for the betterment of the whole of humanity.
>
> > With everything we know about human nature, the need for companionship
> > and purpose, the need to connect and share valuable and intimate
> > relationships I am amazed at this. Most of what I know about healthy
> > people tells me that they would suffer massive hardships for their
> > loved ones, willingly and with pride, a testament of strength. Less so
> > for the average stranger, perhaps, but not necessarily. I think that
> > what you describe is a sign of social disease, complicit to usury,
> > greed, selfishness and delusion of fulfillment- like drunkards all. It
> > just seems there is much that could be done if we chose to do it
> > intelligently, we could build a better human existence and be rewarded
> > with meaningful existence. Some do, we should learn from them.
>
> > Hope it doesn't sound like I have rose colored glasses Lee, the world
> > I've known is anything but.
>
> > > You go on to say:
>
> > > 'Well the more I think about this the less it sounds reasonable to
> > > assume that given the viable choice and reason to believe it wasn't a
> > > catch 22 that anyone capable of doing anything would choose a life of
> > > scraps over anything productive'
>
> > > While this is I guess a reasonable assumption to make, again the
> > > reality of our history of Communism shows that people can, will and
> > > do, if not choose scraps, at least be quite content with them rather
> > > than help out their fellow man.
>
> > > Ultimatly we are and odd species, rather more sheep like than wolf
> > > like.  From my British eyes I can only look on astunded at the
> > > shenanigans of  the Conservative Christians in the USA.  Stuff that
> > > really shouldn't be happening or that perhaps would have ellicted a
> > > vaster outcry from the public 20 years ago.  I can see how modern
> > > history has brought us to such a place, and I sorta understand how
> > > people are so easily lead on what to think and who to blame.  Stronger
> > > leadership, strong moral ideas are what we need, but we can't expect
> > > the whole of humanity to help or even agree, and this exactly the
> > > thing.
>
> > I think people are mostly ignorant of what we are capable of, and how
> > fulfilling simple things can be, even necessary. Strong leadership and
> > morality I consider innate, but diminished in society. Turning this
> > topic into a feasible plan/solution would be quite a challenge- but,
> > isn't that what exemplars are doing? Not taxiing us to paradise but
> > helping to chart the terrain of mental transmutation (so to speak).
>
> > > On Sep 19, 8:05 pm, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Lee Douglas <leerevdoug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> > Heh okay I can see you didn't get my point.
>
> > >> > I only mention the C word (Communisim) as an example of my words
> > >> > privious to uttering it.
>
> > >> Thanks for keeping true to it then Lee, I'll try to dig deeper. :) I
> > >> take it you don't mean that Communism is the best example of a society
> > >> geared toward the objectives I am proposing, nor that it is the only
> > >> means to those ends. Should I take your meaning to be that Communism
> > >> is a system undertaken to such social ends and proves people would
> > >> rather sponge? I could agree with that perhaps, but I do not agree
> > >> that people who are raised and a society that is built around
> > >> effective means to promote those ends would necessarily look anything
> > >> like what Communism has over the last 70 years. I may still be missing
> > >> your point, if so please hit me with the blunt end of it. :D
>
> > >> > On Sep 19, 4:39 pm, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >> On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 4:37 AM, Lee Douglas <leerevdoug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >> > Heh James it is not hard to imagine what you see as unreasonable to be
> > >> >> > the reality of the situation.  As I said in my last post, let us look
> > >> >> > at how Communisim has worked or not for us over the last 70 years or
> > >> >> > so.
>
> > >> >> Political ideology may be convenient for discourse on political theory
> > >> >> but when it comes to solving social challenges I think it is ill
> > >> >> equipped compared to, say, child psychology. Sure, communism sounds
> > >> >> great on paper, but I think it is especially prone to corruption- who
> > >> >> can be trusted with such power, it might be workable under a strong
> > >> >> anarcho-syndicalistic population to keep it in check but then it
> > >> >> wouldn't be Communism and lacking a large scale defense
> > >> >> command&control infrastructure would be vulnerable to corruption and
> > >> >> conquest from within and out. Sounds kinda pie-in-the-sky for today's
> > >> >> world.
>
> > >> >> > The problem is that we are all differant, what may seem sensable to
> > >> >> > some will not seem so to others.
>
> > >> >> Granted, this does not establish whichever negative effects are the
> > >> >> result of social systems that encourage the 'sponging' behavior. What
> > >> >> I am trying to identify is the context of humanity, the variables that
> > >> >> encourage beneficial and desirable behaviors and also under what
> > >> >> circumstances the negatives emerge so that they can be minimized.
>
> > >> >> > What is you stance on the dealth penalty, as a view to an example of
> > >> >> > how differantly we all think?
>
> > >> >> Hm, too expensive to pursue proper justice, ineffective deterrent,
> > >> >> provides little gain to society at large. Bout sums it up for me.
>
> > >> >> For example one could argue beating kids and following the Bible
> > >> >> examples is the only way to produce 'properly' behaved children, that
> > >> >> doesn't fit with scientific knowledge on the subject of child rearing.
> > >> >> I think there is helpful scientific knowledge on all these subjects
> > >> >> you bring up and would like to see more of that in public discourse.
> > >> >> As it stands progress is held to the beck and call of reaction-terms
> > >> >> tossed at the public to produce reliable results (for the same people
> > >> >> that aren't fixing things) rather than encouraging people to develop
> > >> >> productive and intelligent discourse.
>
> > >> >> Considering the level of ignorance promulgated in our political
> > >> >> debates I find it amazing our (US) democracy works to the degree it
> > >> >> has.
>
> > >> >> > On Sep 16, 11:37 pm, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >> >> Well the more I think about this the less it sounds reasonable to
> > >> >> >> assume that given the viable choice and reason to believe it wasn't a
> > >> >> >> catch 22 that anyone capable of doing anything would choose a life of
> > >> >> >> scraps over anything productive. In that case chronic welfare should
> > >> >> >> come hitched with therapy, mandatory, to identify those who could
> > >> >> >> really use some more psychological attention and keep people from
> > >> >> >> falling between the cracks. Some may, and that is one's right, but a
> > >> >> >> goal of societal health should be to facilitate productive lives my
> > >> >> >> any means possible. The costs to society are too great otherwise and
> > >> >> >> there is a huge amount of work to be done.
>
> > >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 11:06 AM, Lee Douglas <leerevdoug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >> >> > I do not belive all people would work for these things make sacrifices
> > >> >> >> > and be likely to be happy at all.
>
> > >> >> >> > We can see that so far Communism has not really worked.
>
> > >> >> >> > I agree that we must as a society look
>
> ...
>
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