you outline mate. There are signs of asperger's - and his mum had
real problems at school though is quite bright and copes well at
university level. Most of the teenage crud is present - he quickly
smells up his bedroom etc. Some tough love is indicated - but what
worries me is the 'one size fits all' of school.
On Nov 3, 10:31 pm, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tutoring by an older student they respect. In my experience, a parent or
> adult relative is often a poor choice for the tutoring role. My son would
> get very upset with how frustrated I would get when he wasn't catching on
> to what I saw as so easy it was ridiculous. Not his fault. Some people
> aren't meant to do maths I've decided.
>
> dj
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 5:25 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Anyone any idea how we might teach or let learn my 14 year-olds so
> > they can be knowledgeable members of a democracy? Some of them have
> > noticed their education is about ranking them to the bottom. It looks
> > like an impossible quest to me. I believe the Meno question is
> > already riddled with false assumptions based in privilege and
> > ignorance. The Greeks may not have been in a position to revognise
> > this, but we are.
>
> > On Nov 3, 9:57 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Amongst the answers to the knowledge value question is that it gives
> > > us social means (language) for rational consensus rather than the
> > > hygiene methods of the hive. Politics would suggest we still rely on
> > > buzzing.
>
> > > Oeve he Menon Nov 3, 9:13 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Gabby's is quite a fair summary of the Stanford piece. The Greeks
> > > > were broadly without science, particularly modern brain science that
> > > > shifts us away from the rational in decision-making to a fair degree.
> > > > In the current economic disaster we have loads of people telling us
> > > > they know what to do and extraordinarily boring news coverage of their
> > > > farcical deliberations. At stake around the world is that democracy
> > > > we have only had in promises - one of peace and reasonable
> > > > equality.Most in history that has been claimed as fact or knowledge
> > > > has turned out to be myth,fable or reliant on grand narratives
> > > > (various gods and ethics) and manipulated by dominant groups of one
> > > > kind or another. Gabby has always been quick to point this out with
> > > > one sting or another. Vam's put forward a kind of sane standard that
> > > > still leaves us with the problem of the criterion - the paradox of
> > > > what comes first - knowing what or knowing how? - and thus how
> > > > reliable are our methodologies.
> > > > My own frustrations with philosophy led me to science - but the
> > > > frustrations with science's clerks can be more intense - and both
> > > > areas lack something literature can give and that religion promises.
> > > > On the odd occasion one could find people prepared to pull each
> > > > other's ideas apart the spirit was often brilliant and very unlikely
> > > > to lead to 'Molly's withdrawal'. The spirit of such dialogue gives
> > > > one a sense of security - at lower levels criticism really just
> > > > produces 'backfire' - the situation in which false smearing of the
> > > > other arises and evidence of the contrary opinion leads to a hardening
> > > > of incorrect belief. There is substantial psychological and
> > > > sociological consideration of this.
> > > > It seems to me that one of our first considerations on knowledge needs
> > > > to be the extent to which its influence is legitimate and I doubt much
> > > > of it is. I don't do 'god solutions' though I'd go a long way with
> > > > RP's 'structured human responsibility' from another thread. What I
> > > > want to know more about is how knowledge is generally denied human
> > > > beings. I've taken on teaching some really thick kids once a week and
> > > > may need a brain surgery manual to get anything through. One or two
> > > > of them have gathered they get something unconditional from me - some
> > > > of the others can't grasp the Dylan lyrics I play on 'farming the
> > > > mind'. The are resistant to school and their teachers have noticed
> > > > classes easier to teach with them out of them. Yet away from the
> > > > specifics of their problems, education seems to have done little for
> > > > all of us in our ability to control the small,powerful group who rule.
> > > > I suspect knowledge is much more implicated with dark power than
> > > > enlightenment. And I suspect teaching has little to do with producing
> > > > resourceful humans who can't hack he highly constrained curriculum.
> > > > The Meno question is an irrelevance for me because it has already
> > > > excluded the real difficulties, a key error in problem definition.
>
> > > > I was lucky enough to spend some days with African Bushmen years ago
> > > > and their knowledge was very different from mine - but distinctly one
> > > > I'd have needed to learn to survive their environment. Pity I've lost
> > > > touch - I have a feeling they could teach my class more effectively
> > > > than me.
> > > > On Nov 3, 5:22 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Sure... I was aware of that in your context ! Thinking about knowing
> > > > > is not knowing enough. It is the being with the knowing that is
> > > > > knowing indeed.
>
> > > > > On Nov 3, 3:19 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > More and more, I find myself preferring a quiet mind, beyond the
> > > > > > thinking about knowing.
>
> > > > > > On Nov 3, 3:54 am, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > I do see why "you" should considering the Knowledge vs Belief as
> > a
> > > > > > > teaser. It is valid question and has a defined answer.
>
> > > > > > > Knowledge is preferable than Belief... because -
>
> > > > > > > 1) It is found on known FACTS, usually many more than those
> > specific
> > > > > > > to a central matter < way to Larissa >, triggering familiarity
> > with
> > > > > > > surrounding terrain too ! So, if there was a cloudburst or a
> > landslide
> > > > > > > on the way of belief, knowledge will perhaps offer an alternate
> > way or
> > > > > > > the nearest shelter.
>
> > > > > > > 2) It comes in a package including the knowledge of secondary or
> > > > > > > adjunct facts, paths and PROCESSES, tertiary and sub -
> > processes...
> > > > > > > which makes our awareness of any matter, thing, being, person,
> > event
> > > > > > > or phenomena more complete, detailed and certain.
>
> > > > > > > 3) It always leads to MORE KNOWLEDGE... more accurate, more
> > extensive,
> > > > > > > things new, more deep...
>
> > > > > > > So, why is it considered a teaser... to those of us ?
>
> > > > > > > On Nov 3, 1:38 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > The question why knowledge is distinctively valuable has an
> > important
> > > > > > > > historical precedent in Plato's Meno in which Socrates raises
> > the
> > > > > > > > question of why knowledge is more valuable than mere true
> > belief.
> > > > > > > > Initially, we might appeal to the fact that knowledge appears
> > to be of
> > > > > > > > more practical use than true belief in order to mark this
> > difference
> > > > > > > > in value, but, as Socrates notes, this claim is far from
> > obvious on
> > > > > > > > closer inspection. After all, a true belief about the correct
> > way to
> > > > > > > > Larissa is surely of just as much practical use as knowledge
> > of the
> > > > > > > > way to Larissa—both will get us to our destination. Given that
> > we
> > > > > > > > clearly do value knowledge more than mere true belief, the
> > fact that
> > > > > > > > there is no obvious explanation of why this should be so
> > creates a
> > > > > > > > problem. We will call the issue of why knowledge is more
> > valuable than
> > > > > > > > mere true belief, the Meno problem.
>
> > > > > > > > You can get the rest here -
> >http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/knowledge-value/
>
> > > > > > > > I somehow doubt I will be causing much mouse clicking in
> > posting the
> > > > > > > > link! I did some work on knowledge justification and value
> > whilst
> > > > > > > > bored out of my tree, recovering from a serious injury. I was
> > > > > > > > discovering most of academic study is 'witterpiss for
> > wuckfits' at the
> > > > > > > > time. There's a big snag in the Meno problem in that it
> > restricts us
> > > > > > > > to argument not much informed by science. We could sit down
> > all day
> > > > > > > > trying to define knowledge, which might be nice under the
> > Greek sun
> > > > > > > > with some Rakis, local beer and imported coffee. No one has
> > defined
> > > > > > > > knowledge - rather as we don't have a precise decimal for pi.
> > There
> > > > > > > > are, of course, many definitions.
>
> > > > > > > > There are lots of teasers like this in philosophy. My take on
> > this
> > > > > > > > is :
> > > > > > > > 1.there are some things I believe true and have tested
> > scientifically
> > > > > > > > or in mathematical proof - these I trust as knowledge
> > > > > > > > 2. there are some things I think true and can't do the above
> > with.
> > > > > > > > 3. etc. etc. on what I consider reliable or barking.
>
> > > > > > > > we worry too much about this kind of stuff and not enough
> > about the
> > > > > > > > issues of the condition of ignorance.
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