they can be knowledgeable members of a democracy? Some of them have
noticed their education is about ranking them to the bottom. It looks
like an impossible quest to me. I believe the Meno question is
already riddled with false assumptions based in privilege and
ignorance. The Greeks may not have been in a position to revognise
this, but we are.
On Nov 3, 9:57 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Amongst the answers to the knowledge value question is that it gives
> us social means (language) for rational consensus rather than the
> hygiene methods of the hive. Politics would suggest we still rely on
> buzzing.
>
> Oeve he Menon Nov 3, 9:13 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Gabby's is quite a fair summary of the Stanford piece. The Greeks
> > were broadly without science, particularly modern brain science that
> > shifts us away from the rational in decision-making to a fair degree.
> > In the current economic disaster we have loads of people telling us
> > they know what to do and extraordinarily boring news coverage of their
> > farcical deliberations. At stake around the world is that democracy
> > we have only had in promises - one of peace and reasonable
> > equality.Most in history that has been claimed as fact or knowledge
> > has turned out to be myth,fable or reliant on grand narratives
> > (various gods and ethics) and manipulated by dominant groups of one
> > kind or another. Gabby has always been quick to point this out with
> > one sting or another. Vam's put forward a kind of sane standard that
> > still leaves us with the problem of the criterion - the paradox of
> > what comes first - knowing what or knowing how? - and thus how
> > reliable are our methodologies.
> > My own frustrations with philosophy led me to science - but the
> > frustrations with science's clerks can be more intense - and both
> > areas lack something literature can give and that religion promises.
> > On the odd occasion one could find people prepared to pull each
> > other's ideas apart the spirit was often brilliant and very unlikely
> > to lead to 'Molly's withdrawal'. The spirit of such dialogue gives
> > one a sense of security - at lower levels criticism really just
> > produces 'backfire' - the situation in which false smearing of the
> > other arises and evidence of the contrary opinion leads to a hardening
> > of incorrect belief. There is substantial psychological and
> > sociological consideration of this.
> > It seems to me that one of our first considerations on knowledge needs
> > to be the extent to which its influence is legitimate and I doubt much
> > of it is. I don't do 'god solutions' though I'd go a long way with
> > RP's 'structured human responsibility' from another thread. What I
> > want to know more about is how knowledge is generally denied human
> > beings. I've taken on teaching some really thick kids once a week and
> > may need a brain surgery manual to get anything through. One or two
> > of them have gathered they get something unconditional from me - some
> > of the others can't grasp the Dylan lyrics I play on 'farming the
> > mind'. The are resistant to school and their teachers have noticed
> > classes easier to teach with them out of them. Yet away from the
> > specifics of their problems, education seems to have done little for
> > all of us in our ability to control the small,powerful group who rule.
> > I suspect knowledge is much more implicated with dark power than
> > enlightenment. And I suspect teaching has little to do with producing
> > resourceful humans who can't hack he highly constrained curriculum.
> > The Meno question is an irrelevance for me because it has already
> > excluded the real difficulties, a key error in problem definition.
>
> > I was lucky enough to spend some days with African Bushmen years ago
> > and their knowledge was very different from mine - but distinctly one
> > I'd have needed to learn to survive their environment. Pity I've lost
> > touch - I have a feeling they could teach my class more effectively
> > than me.
> > On Nov 3, 5:22 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Sure... I was aware of that in your context ! Thinking about knowing
> > > is not knowing enough. It is the being with the knowing that is
> > > knowing indeed.
>
> > > On Nov 3, 3:19 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > More and more, I find myself preferring a quiet mind, beyond the
> > > > thinking about knowing.
>
> > > > On Nov 3, 3:54 am, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > I do see why "you" should considering the Knowledge vs Belief as a
> > > > > teaser. It is valid question and has a defined answer.
>
> > > > > Knowledge is preferable than Belief... because -
>
> > > > > 1) It is found on known FACTS, usually many more than those specific
> > > > > to a central matter < way to Larissa >, triggering familiarity with
> > > > > surrounding terrain too ! So, if there was a cloudburst or a landslide
> > > > > on the way of belief, knowledge will perhaps offer an alternate way or
> > > > > the nearest shelter.
>
> > > > > 2) It comes in a package including the knowledge of secondary or
> > > > > adjunct facts, paths and PROCESSES, tertiary and sub - processes...
> > > > > which makes our awareness of any matter, thing, being, person, event
> > > > > or phenomena more complete, detailed and certain.
>
> > > > > 3) It always leads to MORE KNOWLEDGE... more accurate, more extensive,
> > > > > things new, more deep...
>
> > > > > So, why is it considered a teaser... to those of us ?
>
> > > > > On Nov 3, 1:38 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > The question why knowledge is distinctively valuable has an important
> > > > > > historical precedent in Plato's Meno in which Socrates raises the
> > > > > > question of why knowledge is more valuable than mere true belief.
> > > > > > Initially, we might appeal to the fact that knowledge appears to be of
> > > > > > more practical use than true belief in order to mark this difference
> > > > > > in value, but, as Socrates notes, this claim is far from obvious on
> > > > > > closer inspection. After all, a true belief about the correct way to
> > > > > > Larissa is surely of just as much practical use as knowledge of the
> > > > > > way to Larissa—both will get us to our destination. Given that we
> > > > > > clearly do value knowledge more than mere true belief, the fact that
> > > > > > there is no obvious explanation of why this should be so creates a
> > > > > > problem. We will call the issue of why knowledge is more valuable than
> > > > > > mere true belief, the Meno problem.
>
> > > > > > You can get the rest here -http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/knowledge-value/
>
> > > > > > I somehow doubt I will be causing much mouse clicking in posting the
> > > > > > link! I did some work on knowledge justification and value whilst
> > > > > > bored out of my tree, recovering from a serious injury. I was
> > > > > > discovering most of academic study is 'witterpiss for wuckfits' at the
> > > > > > time. There's a big snag in the Meno problem in that it restricts us
> > > > > > to argument not much informed by science. We could sit down all day
> > > > > > trying to define knowledge, which might be nice under the Greek sun
> > > > > > with some Rakis, local beer and imported coffee. No one has defined
> > > > > > knowledge - rather as we don't have a precise decimal for pi. There
> > > > > > are, of course, many definitions.
>
> > > > > > There are lots of teasers like this in philosophy. My take on this
> > > > > > is :
> > > > > > 1.there are some things I believe true and have tested scientifically
> > > > > > or in mathematical proof - these I trust as knowledge
> > > > > > 2. there are some things I think true and can't do the above with.
> > > > > > 3. etc. etc. on what I consider reliable or barking.
>
> > > > > > we worry too much about this kind of stuff and not enough about the
> > > > > > issues of the condition of ignorance.
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