people in asubstantial way. All socialist experiments failed on this.
"
There's a way to challenge this through the legal system-
Constitutional Law; Ts for the greedy gainers, Aitle 16, Criminal Code
- Life Sentence/ RICO Act: Federal Prison.
On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 4:06 PM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
> The question for Hazare and all rebellion is about doing more than
> just replace business-as-usual with new faces in charge. I think the
> constructive step in this is to leave law-making with the people in a
> substantial way. All socialist experiments failed on this.
>
> On Dec 31, 11:40 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I just took a moment to look over the Anna Hazare way and need a lot more
>> reading.
>>
>> No crook whether public or private wants to be held accountable for their
>> activities the biggest problem with the occupy movement is the lack of
>> focus they are trying to hit a cloud with a shoot gun. It does need a more
>> focused point that can be changed a one step at a time thing like full
>> open accountability for the government,
>> Allan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 7:40 AM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Participatory Democracy is about trying to create Audit and Citizen
>> > Care institutions...
>>
>> > Quite along same lines that modern organisation performance management
>> > practice verges... 1) Accts, Policy & Process Audit and 2) Customer
>> > Care, which create the 360 degree path around the Executive / Govt -
>> > Doing / Performing, How / Targeting and Utilising, and What / WTF is
>> > being delivered.
>>
>> > And, true, to go beyond writing papers and expressing pious
>> > thoughts... it has to be fought the Anna Hazare way in India, which
>> > incidently I found to be better than Occupy Wall Street, in Anna's was
>> > more defined - he wanted a Law, a statute that had been well worked
>> > upon and provisioned with anti-graft investigation and govt services
>> > delivery audit, systems and processes, and unprecedented prosecution
>> > speed and sentence quantas... all laid out in consultation with the
>> > public over long.
>>
>> > The Right To Information and Vigilance Commission were others. And the
>> > autonomous Election Commission before that. The Judiciary alone was
>> > doing the doing the job. The Comptroller & Audit General used to do an
>> > excellent job but invariably ignored.
>>
>> > Yeah... institutions, that need to be fought for in the streets
>> > because the govts, as companies, do not want any meaningful audit,
>> > much less prosecution for ill doings.
>>
>> > On Dec 31, 12:48 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > Participatory Democracy is the answer but the problem is eliminating the
>> > > super citizen or corporate citizens..
>>
>> > > It will work when corporations have a limited time copyright say 15 years
>> > > then it automatically becomes public domain. the problem is not so much
>> > > in organizing citizens,, but in controlling the super citizens who use
>> > > wealth to control the government.
>> > > Allan
>>
>> > > On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 6:31 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > Some way off-beam I've just read that it's men who differ most from
>> > > > chimps genetically - to do with the complexity of the Y chromosome and
>> > > > its influence on sperm production. I tend to hold to such distinction
>> > > > and its irrelevance to public equality.
>>
>> > > > I believe, like Vam, that answers can come from more participatory
>> > > > democracy. I also believe that merely asserting this is no answer at
>> > > > all. One can too easily imagine Obama or Palin making the statement.
>> > > > Or some half-assed Bolshevik. Just as allowing people to amass wealth
>> > > > allows them to amass power, the demos can also be scripted power that
>> > > > can be as bad. It's a mistake to make this into a 'faith choice'
>> > > > issue. The usual academic turn at this point is to notions of social
>> > > > contract.
>>
>> > > > On Dec 30, 2:54 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > > I have a feeling that this character, Vam, has usurped all the space
>> > > > > that is there... so that no one else may now be allowed entry !
>>
>> > > > > Well, fkrs, there is no limiot to space if you did not know ! So, get
>> > > > > over that excuse.
>>
>> > > > > Also I might have taken this conversation into an area you might not
>> > > > > be as comfortable.
>> > > > > Hell, in that case, have the balls to say so !
>> > > > > Females may forgive, not because I used the term but because I do not
>> > > > > know of the term to draw you all in the same order. I hold absolutely
>> > > > > no distinction between genders, if you would believe.
>>
>> > > > > On Dec 30, 8:36 am, Edward Mason <masonedward...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > > > > Indeed, Vam!
>>
>> > > > > > On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> > > > > > > Gabby... Hunger everywhere is wrong. There is enough food on this
>> > > > > > > planet to feed everyone. But the economics has not made it
>> > possible.
>> > > > > > > Even when the law declares...
>>
>> > > > > > > Yes, the Supreme Court here ordered the Govt to distribute excess
>> > > > food
>> > > > > > > grains in its silos among the hungry ! But the Minister simply
>> > said,
>> > > > "
>> > > > > > > It is not possible."
>>
>> > > > > > > And no one was booked, can ever be booked, for causing hunger !
>>
>> > > > > > > Rigs... Neil is speaking of the same thing... we all are.
>> > > > > > > ... how to take control of at least the critical aspects of our
>> > > > lives.
>>
>> > > > > > > I wish people here could extend this discussion, in thought and
>> > idea,
>> > > > > > > and... among other things, become more free, more happy, more
>> > self -
>> > > > > > > empowered. So that they end up doing things in that light. Often,
>> > > > > > > almost always, they do not.
>>
>> > > > > > > I believe Edward is speaking of the same thing... action in the
>> > light
>> > > > > > > of knowledge. Not mere emotions, which economics of the day
>> > exploits.
>> > > > > > > And so is Allan, when he uses his " beliefs " for making
>> > decisions.
>>
>> > > > > > > We are all trying to take more control of our lives.
>> > > > > > > And, bringing it on this platform is BEAUTIFUL.
>>
>> > > > > > > On Dec 30, 1:15 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > > > >> If the law is not the law but an ass, it explains why in truth
>> > > > there is no
>> > > > > > >> one to blame. If the law is the law than you know it is being
>> > set
>> > > > up by
>> > > > > > >> men. The same is true for economics. And you would eventually
>> > find
>> > > > someone
>> > > > > > >> to blame.
>>
>> > > > > > >> As for your seeds metaphor, it is no coincidence that the
>> > children's
>> > > > > > >> interests are not visible in this specific court room or market
>> > > > place. They
>> > > > > > >> are not to be held accountable for what they cannot oversee yet.
>> > > > There are
>> > > > > > >> proofs for that, which have been accepted as such.
>>
>> > > > > > >> As for the limitation of science and objectivity, you are
>> > right. If
>> > > > one
>> > > > > > >> could get all peer reviewers from the past, the present and the
>> > > > future
>> > > > > > >> together in one room discussing each theory properly, then we'd
>> > > > have it! ;)
>>
>> > > > > > >> On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 4:44 PM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> > > > > > >> > "... trees don't exist unless someone observes them."
>>
>> > > > > > >> > That's the limitation of science and objectivity. That's why
>> > the
>> > > > law
>> > > > > > >> > is an ass. That's how predatory economics has clear toehold in
>> > > > > > >> > society. They all get away because there is no crime committed
>> > > > unless
>> > > > > > >> > one is caught or there are effects to show here and now !
>>
>> > > > > > >> > How is one to establish and measure crimes that are seeded...
>> > for
>> > > > > > >> > which there are no observers, no complaints... for which there
>> > > > are no
>> > > > > > >> > laws... or for which laws can be extended or interpreted to
>> > > > exclude
>> > > > > > >> > them !
>>
>> > > > > > >> > The truth is : There trees galore that are invisible now...
>> > in the
>> > > > > > >> > seeds, which will sprout months, years, decades and centuries
>> > > > later !
>> > > > > > >> > Without admitting this fact, we can never hope to tackle
>> > climate
>> > > > > > >> > issues, environment and sustainability problems. There is no
>> > one
>> > > > > > >> > specific to blame. Much ( e.g. emissions ) is approved and
>> > > > admissible
>> > > > > > >> > as of now, and is not a crime. And, the effects are invariably
>> > > > long -
>> > > > > > >> > term, so there are no objective proofs here and now.
>>
>> > > > > > >> > Try presenting theories and results of studies and research
>> > in a
>> > > > court
>> > > > > > >> > of law... and they will either be unconvincing or simply
>> > countered
>> > > > > > >> > with another of the same !
>>
>> > > > > > >> > On Dec 28, 11:14 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > > > >> > > That states the issue more or less as I see it rigsy -
>> > though I
>> > > > don't
>> > > > > > >> > > do the Xtian thing as religion. It's more that much could
>> > be
>> > > > > > >> > > recovered in religion if we could get away from its
>> > > > factionalisms.
>> > > > > > >> > > What gets to me in economics or any form of social science
>> > is
>> > > > we seem
>> > > > > > >> > > to forget we are just (or should be) trying to do our best
>> > and
>> > > > are
>> > > > > > >> > > making decisions that affect human beings rather than some
>> > > > culture
>> > > > > > >> > > under glass or whatever. I don't want to leap into faith in
>> > > > theory
>> > > > > > >> > > beyond something that retains realistic hope of reasonable
>> > > > equality
>> > > > > > >> > > and freedom for most people.
>> > > > > > >> > > I don't think religion per se can achieve this, but a better
>> > > > > > >> > > understanding of it might help. One can throw up thought
>> > > > experiments
>> > > > > > >> > > - such as whether the unseen tree exists and so on - but
>> > people
>> > > > are
>> > > > > > >> > > inclined to forget these are classroom tricks to get some
>> > > > thinking
>> > > > > > >> > > done rather than assertions trees don't exist unless
>> > someone
>> > > > observes
>> > > > > > >> > > them. Economists have forgotten their models are thought
>> > > > > > >> > > experiments. Some of the models rely on such stupid
>> > notions of
>> > > > human
>> > > > > > >> > > nature as to be risible. Expecting people to behave
>> > rationally
>> > > > seems
>> > > > > > >> > > absurd to me given what we know of ourselves as social
>> > animals
>> > > > now.
>> > > > > > >> > > What I've seen in a great deal of academic modelling is
>> > more or
>> > > > less
>> > > > > > >> > > similar to what Vam (and others) point out as putting
>> > something
>> > > > on
>> > > > > > >> > > paper and arguing as though that is all that should be
>> > argued
>> > > > when
>>
>> ...
>>
>> read more »
