as fascism and its 'greater leader' dunnage. I can see what you mean
in regard of our more academic learning - though there is good
evidence now that kids have math concepts before they begin to be
taught them. Animals of all kinds pass on learning in their
communities. Our aluminium foil space flight reminds me a bit of some
plant reproductive mechanisms where the seed is tossed out on a wing
and a prayer (sycamores etc.) - we may have got here in spore form.
Some algae seem to climb on each other's "backs" before they are
whipped into the air from a foaming sea and onto the jetstream. One
of my own speculations is we may have once been part of a greater
civilisation that could not defeat problems in speed of light travel
(space has friction) and so seeded itself into the world we know much
as dandelions blow in the wind here. Maybe god is some remnant of
them, all they could do for our comfort?
On Jan 11, 9:10 pm, malcymo <malc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Loved Hancock. Yes, IQ tests are obviously culturally based.
>
> On Jan 12, 5:17 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I grew up with Hancock's Half Hour - he was a brilliantly pessimistic
> > comedian! Killed himself. I rather like the gnostic pessimism that
> > creation is a mistake - one can still build an optimistic life based
> > on this. I don't go for it myself - the idea is best read in Rosak's
> > "Flicker" which made me laugh my Hancock off.
>
> > Mal - there's some evidence lizards are getting smarter because of
> > global warming (seriously). Even amoeba are highly adapted creatures
> > that have "learned". Bushmen in Africa have very low average IQ - but
> > are we going to pit our IQ against their local intelligence in
> > surviving in their backyard without our civilized stuff? Their
> > intelligence is fitted to their conditions - indeed it's likely
> > "intelligence" in our sense is linked to not living where the (bad)
> > infectious diseases are. Much we attribute to "genes" and individual-
> > ethnic superiority concerns geography, climate and a lot more.
>
> > Without getting into eternal-TOE stuff we are presumably free to
> > deconstruct rigsy's glob - though I wonder how many can really make
> > this choice or have made a choice not to bother. I guess the big
> > problem of going with such glob-flow is when it's fascist or contains
> > "religious reasons" to make women walk about in black bags or have to
> > suffer "churching" and the like. Greek epistemology didn't get to
> > grips with much we now see as freedom. For that matter, we find what
> > look like refined, rationalised human mistakes like slavery in some
> > ant practice and our bodies are evidence we assimilated other life
> > forms like the Borg in our evolution. Science is making "gene-
> > splicing" a reality.
> > I guess we have be able to choose between fictions and at bottom I
> > like the idea of being able to live in choice. Some fictions prevent
> > this on a grand scale. The real issues emerge when one realises that
> > one wants to insist women don't wear black bags and you might have no
> > right to tell them not to. In practice much changes when coercive
> > authority-hegemony is removed. At this point I don't consider the
> > individual as the site of freedom and tend to believe existentialism
> > hapless.
>
> > On Jan 11, 12:31 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > By the time one is walking down the aisle the trap has been laid. :-)
> > > It's like joining the army and hoping you don't get killed or maimed
> > > for life, perhaps, or that your being a soldier will bring everlasting
> > > peace to our world. Eventually-hopefully- one reasons out the past and
> > > comes to some understanding- but that's hindsight rather than
> > > foresight. If we live in a liberal country, we might "get over IT".
>
> > > I do think we absorb a glob of wishful thinking promoted by religion
> > > and culture at an early age and as malcymo says, optimists are more
> > > fun than pessimists and likely to have similar friends- or ones that
> > > share your delusions. Heaven help the truth-teller! "Sit down! You're
> > > Rocking the Boat!" (Guys and Dolls)
>
> > > On Jan 10, 12:56 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Bringing up Liz reminds me of common experiments in brain science
> > > > rigsy. We often think something special about ourselves will beat the
> > > > average - that our ownb free will or determination etc. will defy
> > > > statistical reality - as in
> > > > Ask a bride before walking down the aisle "How likely are you to get
> > > > divorced?" and most will respond "Not a chance!" Tell her that the
> > > > average divorce rate is close to 50 percent, and ask again. Would she
> > > > change her mind? Unlikely. Even law students who have learned
> > > > everything about the legal aspects of divorce, including its
> > > > likelihood, state that their own chances of getting divorced are
> > > > basically nil. How can we explain this?
>
> > > > Psychologists have documented human optimism for decades. They have
> > > > learned that people generally overestimate their likelihood of
> > > > experiencing positive events, such as winning the lottery, and
> > > > underestimate their likelihood of experiencing negative events, such
> > > > as being involved in an accident or suffering from cancer. Informing
> > > > people about their statistical likelihood of experiencing negative
> > > > events, such as divorce, is surprisingly ineffective at altering their
> > > > optimistic predictions, and highlighting previously unknown risk
> > > > factors for diseases fails to engender realistic perceptions of
> > > > medical vulnerability. How can people maintain their rose-colored
> > > > views of the future in the face of reality? Which neural processes are
> > > > involved in people's optimistic predictions?
>
> > > > We have some fair answers to some of this, but Catch 22, telling
> > > > people is unlikely to affect them!
>
> > > > On Jan 10, 3:41 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Which reminds me of a quote (Liz Taylor?) that she would do the same
> > > > > things all over again but with different people.
>
> > > > > How are you measuring these societies? Certainly seems like evils
> > > > > persist in secular societies as readily as the religious. (Eco has a
> > > > > great paper on fascism- "Eternal Fascism: Fourteen Ways of Looking at
> > > > > a Blackshirt" http://www.themodernword.com/eco/eco_blackshirt.html).
>
> > > > > I love certain authors- Eco being one- lust after them, in fact- even
> > > > > the dead ones!
>
> > > > > On Jan 9, 4:37 pm, malcymo <malc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Thanks for the new Eco book.
>
> > > > > > I likewise respect deterministic forces simply because I know that if
> > > > > > placed again in all the
> > > > > > decision making positions of my past I would, given the social
> > > > > > circumstances, have made the same choices.
> > > > > > There are no "If onlys" in my life.
>
> > > > > > However, it seems to me that secular authority has tried much harder
> > > > > > to create fairer, more ethical guidance for societies than
> > > > > > those created in the non secular realm. What do you all think?
>
> > > > > > I must get hold of a copy of 'The prague cemetary'.
>
> > > > > > Malc
> > > > > > On Jan 10, 2:10 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Eco was on Charlie Rose (a tv interviewer in the USA) the other night.
> > > > > > > His latest book is another mythbuster- the "Protocols"- entitled "The
> > > > > > > Prague Cemetary".
>
> > > > > > > I respect deterministic forces-fate-weakness. I was rereading
> > > > > > > "Robinson Crusoe" where there is a good deal of debate as Crusoe
> > > > > > > adapts/accepts his circumstances- but that was the 18th C- still quite
> > > > > > > religious. One must wrestle with accountability- it is so easy to
> > > > > > > blame or deny.
>
> > > > > > > On Jan 5, 3:33 pm, malcymo <malc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > Humanity has always, for some reason, felt the need to support his
> > > > > > > > world view with a series of myths commonly termed beliefs in order to,
> > > > > > > > in some way, justify its behaviour. We must not, however, believe that
> > > > > > > > these myths are always spiritual or mystical in nature. Many are not.
>
> > > > > > > > The legitimacy of a myth depends on many features. Umberto Eco in his
> > > > > > > > excellent tome 'Foucault's Pendulum' quietly draws our attention to
> > > > > > > > the requirements needed for the creation of a robust myth and there is
> > > > > > > > no doubt that within most religious and philosophical beliefs the
> > > > > > > > required elements are found.
>
> > > > > > > > Secular myths, however, are somewhat harder to pin down. This may be
> > > > > > > > because they are founded little more than intuition. They are
> > > > > > > > therefore difficult to identify as myths in the first place. Also,
> > > > > > > > such myths can often serve a very useful purpose.
>
> > > > > > > > Let us take as an example the idea of freewill. The idea is so
> > > > > > > > embedded in our psych that most of us believe it to be a reality. Even
> > > > > > > > so, an in depth study soon reveals the fragility of the idea. So
> > > > > > > > fragile is it that philosophers have argued over the question of
> > > > > > > > determinism v free will for generations; time which could have been
> > > > > > > > more usefully employed on other ventures. Indeed some eminent
> > > > > > > > philosophers believe that free will and determinism can sit
> > > > > > > > legitimately together – the so called Such is the nature of a myth.
>
> > > > > > > > We can only suppose that such an idea must appear rational to us in
> > > > > > > > order to give it legitimacy. After all, our ideas of virtuous
> > > > > > > > behaviour, responsibility and justice are founded on the idea of free
> > > > > > > > will; that we are responsible for our actions and must accept our
> > > > > > > > responsibilities. Yet, there is no doubt that free will defies the
> > > > > > > > tenets embodied in modern physics, the idea of cause and effect. It
> > > > > > > > seems to be extremely difficult for us to accept that some things just
> > > > > > > > are.
>
> > > > > > > > I am interested in this dilemma because if we eventually discover, if
> > > > > > > > we have not already, that determinism is beyond dispute how should we
> > > > > > > > react? How could we possibly recreate our society to live with such a
> > > > > > > > 'truth'?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
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> > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
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> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
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> > - Show quoted text -
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