On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 12:20 AM, Molly <mollyb363@gmail.com> wrote:
Perhaps, gabby. But at this point in my life, for me, there is no
other choice. So is it really a choice?
> ...
On Jan 9, 6:14 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh Molly, I believe you are more than the box you come in, too! I
> believe you choose to want to feel lovely at each moment, feeling
> alive!
>
> On Jan 9, 11:34 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
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> > We know by recognizing his potentiality and helping him to do the
> > same. Sometimes, given the box it comes in, this takes an
> > extraordinary amount of love and care. At some point, choice, like
> > goals and purpose and all the rest, just fall away. And here we are.
> > Relating to those we love. Feeling the life we've been given. Ten
> > years ago I would not have imagined myself as I am today. I am here
> > because somewhere along the line I discovered that the best I can "do"
> > is express myself with love in each moment, and recognize the same in
> > others, whatever the circumstance. Given that, life unfolds.
>
> > On Jan 9, 3:42 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Some of this take on epistemology can be gleaned by observing what's
> > > around us. Teenagers are a minefield of such information. My
> > > grandson (14) is currently making excuses for not having enough baths
> > > and showers along the lines of 'it's my body'. Empirically he stinks.
> > > He's barely noticed how much work gets done around him. He can't keep
> > > his PC free of viruses or use his laptop with enough care not to break
> > > the charger lead (etc.). It has barely dawned on him that I was once
> > > his age and that he has never been my age. He's a good enough lad and
> > > this is all that really matters to me. He was like an Irishman put in
> > > a barrel and told to piss in the corner the other day (add Pole,
> > > Belgian etc. to xenophobic choice). I gave him a power lead straight
> > > from the box and he spent the time trying to fit it to the socket with
> > > the insulation packaging left on. I guess he won't next time, though
> > > I proved a slower learner on some such stuff. It would be easy enough
> > > to leave him alone to "develop" into a useless, smelly nitwit. The
> > > idea is we don't. How do we know?
>
> > > On Jan 7, 10:34 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > I agree with RP that we are looking at complex relations. Lots has
> > > > been said on Mal's thought - this is a standard\ example:
>
> > > > "The Darwinian revolution of the nineteenth century suggested an
> > > > alternative approach first explored by Dewey and the pragmatists.
> > > > Human beings, as the products of evolutionary development, are natural
> > > > beings. Their capacities for knowledge and belief are also the
> > > > products of a natural evolutionary development. As such, there is some
> > > > reason to suspect that knowing, as a natural activity, could and
> > > > should be treated and analyzed along lines compatible with its status,
> > > > i. e., by the methods of natural science. On this view, there is no
> > > > sharp division of labor between science and epistemology. In
> > > > particular, the results of particular sciences such as evolutionary
> > > > biology and psychology are not ruled a priori irrelevant to the
> > > > solution of epistemological problems. Such approaches, in general, are
> > > > called naturalistic epistemologies, whether they are directly
> > > > motivated by evolutionary considerations or not. Those which are
> > > > directly motivated by evolutionary considerations and which argue that
> > > > the growth of knowledge follows the pattern of evolution in biology
> > > > are called "evolutionary epistemologies."
>
> > > > Evolutionary epistemology is the attempt to address questions in the
> > > > theory of knowledge from an evolutionary point of view. Evolutionary
> > > > epistemology involves, in part, deploying models and metaphors drawn
> > > > from evolutionary biology in the attempt to characterize and resolve
> > > > issues arising in epistemology and conceptual change. As disciplines
> > > > co-evolve, models are traded back and forth. Thus, evolutionary
> > > > epistemology also involves attempts to understand how biological
> > > > evolution proceeds by interpreting it through models drawn from our
> > > > understanding of conceptual change and the development of theories.
> > > > The term "evolutionary epistemology" was coined by Donald Campbell
> > > > (1974)."
>
> > > > I don't agree, incidentally that we need to 'apply science methods' to
> > > > look into this and feel this is far too restrictive.
>
> > > > On Jan 7, 8:52 pm, malcymo <malc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Here is a thought.
>
> > > > > If rational thinking has resulted from the sucessful evolutionary
> > > > > developement of the biological brain then that is all it is. Certainly
> > > > > rational thoght would not have developed in (SAY) a fungus in a cave
> > > > > for it would have no survival advantage. So freewill is nothing more
> > > > > than an apt evolutionary development.
>
> > > > > On Jan 7, 9:03 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > those are just excuses, yes my back ground and experiences are what I use
> > > > > > for making decision --- that does not bind me, i still have the choice to
> > > > > > respond as i like
> > > > > > Allan
>
> > > > > > On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 3:33 AM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > We are bound by very subtle ties and our ostensible freedom is wrapped
> > > > > > > in bondage. If we lock up criminals we are bound and if we don't we
> > > > > > > are still bound. Nature, within our will and that without, binds us.
>
> > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 5:01 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > Secular myths abound - largely because most of us are early-tuned to
> > > > > > > > religious ones. I suspect that the idea of social science is one of
> > > > > > > > them. Peter Winch wrote a small book on the topic in 1960 - I'd guess
> > > > > > > > he was one of Wittgenstein's students. We mythologise many secular
> > > > > > > > elements of society - democracy is one, leadership another. Science
> > > > > > > > becomes one in those thinking it can answer all questions or (as in
> > > > > > > > Dawkins) is the only important focus. If we have no free will we
> > > > > > > > should stop locking up criminals. The question on free will is what
> > > > > > > > life would entail without it and consequent responsibilities denied.
> > > > > > > > Even Nietzsche insisted having seen the chaos we should make oursleves
> > > > > > > > works of art.
>
> > > > > > > > On Jan 6, 5:17 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >> I totally agree with you Molly
> > > > > > > >> On Jan 6, 2012 12:15 PM, "Molly" <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > >> > There is more to life than the realm of cause and effect. Many of us
> > > > > > > >> > just prefer it there.
>
> > > > > > > >> > On Jan 5, 5:27 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >> > > Free will is a reality.. the problem comes once you made your
> > > > > > > choice and
> > > > > > > >> > > the effects of the choice ,, these results appear that you have no
> > > > > > > >> > > choice,, you just mad it earlier.
> > > > > > > >> > > Allan
>
> > > > > > > >> > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 10:33 PM, malcymo <malc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >> > > > Humanity has always, for some reason, felt the need to support his
> > > > > > > >> > > > world view with a series of myths commonly termed beliefs in
> > > > > > > order to,
> > > > > > > >> > > > in some way, justify its behaviour. We must not, however, believe
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > >> > > > these myths are always spiritual or mystical in nature. Many are
> > > > > > > not.
>
> > > > > > > >> > > > The legitimacy of a myth depends on many features. Umberto Eco in
> > > > > > > his
> > > > > > > >> > > > excellent tome 'Foucault's Pendulum' quietly draws our attention
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > >> > > > the requirements needed for the creation of a robust myth and
> > > > > > > there is
> > > > > > > >> > > > no doubt that within most religious and philosophical beliefs the
> > > > > > > >> > > > required elements are found.
>
> > > > > > > >> > > > Secular myths, however, are somewhat harder to pin down. This may
> > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > >> > > > because they are founded little more than intuition. They are
> > > > > > > >> > > > therefore difficult to identify as myths in the first place. Also,
> > > > > > > >> > > > such myths can often serve a very useful purpose.
>
> > > > > > > >> > > > Let us take as an example the idea of freewill. The idea is so
> > > > > > > >> > > > embedded in our psych that most of us believe it to be a reality.
> > > > > > > Even
> > > > > > > >> > > > so, an in depth study soon reveals the fragility of the idea. So
> > > > > > > >> > > > fragile is it that philosophers have argued over the question of
> > > > > > > >> > > > determinism v free will for generations; time which could have
> > > > > > > been
> > > > > > > >> > > > more usefully employed on other ventures. Indeed some eminent
> > > > > > > >> > > > philosophers believe that free will and determinism can sit
> > > > > > > >> > > > legitimately together – the so called Such is the nature of a
> > > > > > > myth.
>
> > > > > > > >> > > > We can only suppose that such an idea must appear rational to us
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > >> > > > order to give it legitimacy. After all, our ideas of virtuous
> > > > > > > >> > > > behaviour, responsibility and justice are founded on the idea of
> > > > > > > free
> > > > > > > >> > > > will; that we are responsible for our actions and must accept our
> > > > > > > >> > > > responsibilities. Yet, there is no doubt that free will defies the
> > > > > > > >> > > > tenets embodied in modern physics, the idea of cause and effect.
> > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > >> > > > seems to be extremely difficult for us to accept that some things
> > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > >> > > > are.
>
> > > > > > > >> > > > I am interested in this dilemma
>
>
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