Call it what you want. You can not loan money with out creating a way to repay the loan. And creating poverty is not a way to repay the loan.
Allan
On Feb 24, 2012 7:20 PM, "archytas" <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
It's a strange thing that there is no problem bailing out the banks
who caused most of this misery - but the kind of thing Allan puts
forward immediately falls foul as 'subsidy'.
Assets are now being seized from Greece - something that once took
force of arms. My guess is we will see a communist revolution there -
it was only the stationing of British troops that stopped this after
WW2.
On Feb 24, 9:39 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bail out money well it is poorly spent and the banking panel is totally at
> fault. the bail out negation is simple.. all loans are put on hold
> no interest and no pay back, a no gain no loss situation. the total
> bailout funds need to be used to create employment and permanent jobs..
> maybe manufacturing smart phones,, or other products.. now those holding
> the paper well they have a simple choice either wiat till Greece
> is economic stability or lose all of their money..
>
> As for the negotiators demanding austerity measures. they to should face
> the music also with wage cuts equal to those faced by the poorest, also
> that their shopping bills must meet the inflation they have created and
> they must pay equal tax rates.. no choice. They need to face first hand
> the hardship they have intentionally created. with their lives and cost
> based on the hardship they created and it ends when the hardship they
> created.. Let them hear and face the music they have composed.. Time for
> the banksters and negotiator to pay the piper.
>
> When bail out funds are used to create permanent employment and those that
> have not paid their taxes,, collect them no matter where they hid their
> money. then the bail out will start working..
> Allan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 3:17 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > This situation has come about before. Prior to the Great Depression,
> > the Greek economy experienced years of growth, a healthy commercial
> > activity spree, and like today, a stark increase in (less-leveraged)
> > bank loans to finance it. When the Depression struck, banks and local
> > businesses faced unpayable loans and declining asset values. (Stop me
> > when this sounds familiar).Credit constricted immediately, choking
> > internal economic activity. In 1928, the Greek Drachma was tied to
> > the gold standard, but pegged to the British pound. When Britain
> > devalued its pound in 1931, the Greek government responded by raising
> > public investments and pegging the Drachma to the US dollar.
> > But by early 1932, central bank reserves had fallen so much that they
> > only backed 40% of Greek bonds. Even without the slow drip of rating
> > agency downgrades to highlight this leveraged debt situation (which is
> > nothing compared to say, today's US reserves vs. debt leverage), the
> > lack of reserves caused foreign speculators to fleece the Drachma/
> > dollar exchange rate. Bond yields blew out. Borrowing costs shot up.
> > So in March 1932, the League of Nations (the precursor bank bailout
> > entity to the ECB/IMF) agreed to provide a loan to service Greece's
> > debt in return for – wait for it - austerity measures. Unlike today,
> > the government said 'hell no.' Instead, in April, 1932, it floated the
> > Drachma - which devalued quickly. It also declared a public debt
> > moratorium, and increased infrastructure spending to strengthen its
> > economy. It negotiated repayment terms with creditors for overdue
> > interest. By 1934, agriculture and industrial production rose, the
> > currency was more stable, employment increased, and the budget
> > balanced.
>
> > Greece would have faired better if it had got out of this by default.
> > Don's point on the frustration we aren't doing enough generally is
> > what scares me. UK GDP has actually fallen more than that of Greece
> > since 2009! But what scares me is that I believe banks essentially
> > caused WW1 and its replay and seem even more in control now.
>
> > On Feb 24, 1:19 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Back to the Greeks, it appears they are being bailed out, but as far
> > > as I can see the money is going much like a version of TARP to
> > > European banks. Somewhere in all this some mighty big crooks have had
> > > the original cash and we should be chasing them.
> > > I don't believe manufacturing can bring the jobs back though anything
> > > is welcome. We need new thinking on work and reward - though in the
> > > meantime we could introduce international service at decent wages to
> > > soak up the young and unemployed.
>
> > > On Feb 24, 1:08 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > What the banks did was lend money they didn't have - which perhaps
> > > > weirdly isn't wrong in-itself - if the demand for loans for productive
> > > > purpose is there then why not make the loans in due diligence - we all
> > > > benefit from the increased productive capacity produced. The snag
> > > > was fraud and the banks were clearly incapable of resisting this and
> > > > bribed politicians of all kinds to deregulate (the UK is worse than
> > > > the US on this) and allow massive leverage through fractional
> > > > banking. This happened everywhere once the ball started to roll. It
> > > > all works if most of the investment is sound - but there is no Black-
> > > > Scoles equation behind any of this. The problem with leverage was
> > > > well-known - the more fractional your capital (less of it in ratio
> > > > with what you lend) the more likely you end up insolvent if anything
> > > > goes wrong. A few bad deals screw up your whole company. This is the
> > > > truth - the rest is fraudulent accounting.
> > > > The idea stems from a business practice called 'discounting cashflow'
> > > > - which is largely about talents story from the bible - you don't just
> > > > bury your talents but employ them to purpose - good as far as it goes
> > > > - but the ultimate source of 'talents' is the tax-payer and they
> > > > started to deploy our talents without asking. Indeed this was a dodge
> > > > used to goldsmiths who lent money on the basis of other people's gold
> > > > kept in their vaults. Fine as long as you never hit trouble and have
> > > > to hand over the gold (tax-payers' money). At the micro-level I can
> > > > tell you about companies so dumb they didn't bank money overnight and
> > > > thus missed the interest this gleans. But all this went beyond good
> > > > housekeeping.
> > > > The story would take a couple of pages to write even at this level -
> > > > so I won't go on. At the heart if it banks were betting with out
> > > > money - the question we should now ask is who should own them - and I
> > > > don't just mean the ones we directly bailed out.
>
> > > > On Feb 23, 12:29 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Sounds right to me. It is the current economic strategy in the
> > > > > Detroit region. Along with auto, there are medical, IT and
> > > > > alternative energy (won't mention defense) technologies being
> > > > > developed and manufactured. More and more of it. We have a long way
> > > > > to go to come back but it has begun. going the distance will be the
> > > > > challenge. A hall of fame basketball star for a mayor helps foster
> > > > > that spirit.
>
> > > > > On Feb 23, 2:49 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Am listening to the news, and have been thinking about china an
> > apple and
> > > > > > their claim saying they own the IPad name or what ever .. but I
> > listen to
> > > > > > a friend talk when he was employed by a chinese company was just
> > how
> > > > > > dishonest they were in all areas.. Actually this claim by china
> > could
> > > > > > possibly really show this dishonesty and the effect or fall out
> > could be
> > > > > > bringing back manufacturing to out countries.
>
> > > > > > A manufacturing based economy can put the unemployed back to work.
> > and the
> > > > > > unemployed working and buying national made products would make
> > for a
> > > > > > healthy economy. I am probably saying this wrong.
> > > > > > Allan
>
> > > > > > On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 8:39 AM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > I do think there is revolution in the air as people, some one
> > is going to
> > > > > > > overcome banking dilemma,, I do believe that the bail out is
> > just how to
> > > > > > > rip as much money out of Greece as possible,
> > > > > > > Allan
>
> > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 4:28 AM, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > > > > >> Reminds me of an old Heavy Metal quote.
>
> > > > > > >> "He's nothing but a low-down, double-dealing, backstabbing,
> > larcenous
> > > > > > >> perverted worm! Hanging's too good for him. Burning's too good
> > for him! He
> > > > > > >> should be torn into little bitsy pieces and buried alive!"
>
> > > > > > >> -Hanover Fiste
>
> > > > > > >> We share frustrations Neil. What little being done is either
> > wrong or
> > > > > > >> inadequate. You have a much broader understanding of the
> > banking bail outs
> > > > > > >> than I do. I resent having to bail them out as a tax payer
> > while at the
> > > > > > >> same time not being able to profit from buying property at a
> > much
> > > > > > >> discounted price because the bailouts are keeping prices up
> > artificially.
> > > > > > >> Seems there should be some reward to conservative investing
> > when the shit
> > > > > > >> hits the fan. Clearly; there isn't. Those folks that bought
> > more then they
> > > > > > >> could afford and borrowed more then they could afford shouldn't
> > be bailed
> > > > > > >> out. Those banks that loaned money to these people shouldn't be
> > bailed out.
> > > > > > >> I hate always being the one to pay the Piper exspecially when
> > there are so
> > > > > > >> damn many of them. Pipers I mean. Hell, I didn't even book the
> > show!
>
> > > > > > >> dj
>
> > > > > > >> On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 7:43 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > > > > >>> We'd pay you to take Maggie Don! What I can't take is the
> > shallow
> > > > > > >>> reporting. We get turkeys telling us the stock market is up
> > on 'good
> > > > > > >>> news', down on 'bad news' and no mention that central banks
> > doubled
> > > > > > >>> 'money' in five years and have done it again in the last four
> > - god
> > > > > > >>> knows what stock is really worth if we deflate it against all
> > this
> > > > > > >>> printing. We're told the Greeks are getting £130 billion but
> > really
> > > > > > >>> this is another bank bailout. What gets me really pissed Don
> > is there
> > > > > > >>> is no talk of working our
>
> ...
>
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