A manufacturing based economy can put the unemployed back to work. and the unemployed working and buying national made products would make for a healthy economy. I am probably saying this wrong.
Allan
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On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 8:39 AM, Allan H <allanh1946@gmail.com> wrote:
I do think there is revolution in the air as people, some one is going to overcome banking dilemma,, I do believe that the bail out is just how to rip as much money out of Greece as possible,AllanOn Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 4:28 AM, Don Johnson <dajohn@gmail.com> wrote:Reminds me of an old Heavy Metal quote."He's nothing but a low-down, double-dealing, backstabbing, larcenous perverted worm! Hanging's too good for him. Burning's too good for him! He should be torn into little bitsy pieces and buried alive!"-Hanover FisteWe share frustrations Neil. What little being done is either wrong or inadequate. You have a much broader understanding of the banking bail outs than I do. I resent having to bail them out as a tax payer while at the same time not being able to profit from buying property at a much discounted price because the bailouts are keeping prices up artificially. Seems there should be some reward to conservative investing when the shit hits the fan. Clearly; there isn't. Those folks that bought more then they could afford and borrowed more then they could afford shouldn't be bailed out. Those banks that loaned money to these people shouldn't be bailed out. I hate always being the one to pay the Piper exspecially when there are so damn many of them. Pipers I mean. Hell, I didn't even book the show!dj
On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 7:43 PM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
We'd pay you to take Maggie Don! What I can't take is the shallow
reporting. We get turkeys telling us the stock market is up on 'good
news', down on 'bad news' and no mention that central banks doubled
'money' in five years and have done it again in the last four - god
knows what stock is really worth if we deflate it against all this
printing. We're told the Greeks are getting £130 billion but really
this is another bank bailout. What gets me really pissed Don is there
is no talk of working our way out of it or where the massive
productivity gains have gone. Orn said something ages ago about how
loads of decent paying jobs were around when we were younger. The
basic problem is they've gone.
In old calculations we used to reckon the public sector should be
about 40% of the economy - but productivity on farms and in
manufacturing has risen massively - enough to service more health
care, education and the rest. I don't really care who runs what - if
there's genuine competition and protection of quality of work life the
private sector is best. We're better at doing more or less everything
these days so why's it all turned so sour? I expected my kids to have
things better than me - but in the main they haven't. I don't really
do politics as Labour-Tory Democrat-GOP seems meaningless. Our
Liberals are sharing power now - they looked OK until they were part
of government and now look standard turds.
I saw a nutter on your side of the pond blasting welfare - he was so
dumb he didn't realise his kids were signed up for free meals and he
gets several thousand in tax credits! We need a New Deal - and also
to remember even that didn't end the depression. I remember when
human resource management meant ensuring your firm's pay and
conditions were the best to attract the right labour - now it's all
bull to cover up dire conditions.
One thing in the Greek situation is that their bonds are supposedly
insured by Credit Derivative Swaps - but everyone thinks if they do
try this switch we'll discover there is no insurance and the system
will collapse. Selling dud insurance is a crime. I'd like to see
some arrests. I regard sending our production to China and the like
as tantamount to 'selling whiskey and guns to the Indians'. Hanging
some traitors would be a GOOD START!
On Feb 21, 3:42 am, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It's a Catch-22 situation. No solution looks good to me they're all pretty
> sucky. At this point it's the on going never ending uncertainty that's
> making me nervous more then anything. I wish we could pick a solution
> that's not too terribly drastic and then commit. To me that means raise
> taxes on us all; including the have-nots in our respective well-to-do
> countries. I mean raise taxes and cut spending on the big offenders. Social
> programs. Welfare. The up-coming Obama-Care. We do all that and reform
> Medicaid and Medicare and it will be messy; it will be hard and people that
> don't deserve it will suffer. But. But a lot less people will be raping the
> System. The Rich will pay more and the more reasonable among them won't
> mind as much because they'll be seeing the rest of us huddled masses paying
> as well. We are going to have to pass a Consumption Tax in this country. I
> hate it but we have to. It's the only way to start paying down this
> ridiculous debt the last two presidents have saddled us with. I would never
> agree to it unless it's combined with rock-solid cuts in entitlements. Not
> BS crap promises of debt 'ceilings' that always get raised.
>
> I have zero faith in this Congress and very little hope for the next one.
> I'm disappointed in my available choices for the next Pres. Send us Maggie
> Thatcher please. Or someone very like her.
>
> dj
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> ...> On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 10:30 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Bankruptcy laws are a-changing Don. Student loans can't be written-
> > off in a court anymore, and when the looters hollow-out a company, the
> > banks get posted to the top of the recipient list in administration
> > ahead of mugs like us who thought we might see a return. Bankruptcy
> > at this level is complex because derivatives play a role. We don't
> > know who really holds Greek debt or whether that held by the City of
> > London is gold or guano. These debts are supposedly insured - but
> > instead of that meaning a payout as from a car crash, it seems to mean
> > a wad of claims because of all the derivative bets on the failure
> > (2008 repeat in spades). In the UK's case we need to know whether the
> > debts or banks created are investment assets or donkey-droppings. You
> > and I could have a few million in debt but wouldn't care if this was
> > because we'd borrowed to buy into a productive gold mine. Rather
> > than bankruptcy what's needed is to mark assets (which may be debts on
> > a bank balance sheet) to market - currently much is marked to models
> > that may be completely fictitious.
> > What we've seen so far is that tax payers hold the baby. QEs and the
> > rest mean money we saved for pensions is both worth less and can
> > demand lower annuities because the return on gilts (Treasury bonds) is
> > kept down. Greece would already be bankrupt if just their money was
> > involved - this will turn out to be leveraged many times over through
> > derivatives. real bankruptcy would hit the bond holders and this is
> > what we should do, along with a return to primitive banking.
>
> > On Feb 19, 4:05 am, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Are you familiar with our Bankruptcy laws Neil? I would hope your country
> > > and possibly Greece has something similar. IF not maybe that's the
> > answer.
> > > Too Big To Fail isn't working out so well.
>
> > > dj
>
> > > On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 6:03 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > >http://www.zerohedge.com/news/guest-post-when-debt-more-important-peo.
> > ..
> > > > This is the moral argument as I see it.
>
> > > > On Feb 17, 4:17 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Whatever we say in respect of these problems we tend to imagine false
> > > > > hopes without dealing with them. Can we really imagine, given
> > > > > history, that a bunch of bureaucrats making decisions must be better
> > > > > than a business approach, that the public sector must be better than
> > > > > private enterprise or any of the reverses? State capitalism is a big
> > > > > thing and doing at least as well as private conglomerates (see the
> > > > > current Economist). These ideologies have much in common and a
> > > > > notable lack of common control and have rich and powerful people
> > > > > running them.
> > > > > I suspect the Greeks need the same help as the rest of us - a new
> > work-
> > > > > reward ethic of a living wage from all jobs and finance as a utility.
> > > > > This apparently modest statement is "revolutionary".
>
> > > > > On Feb 17, 3:06 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > I'm not sure science does move so slowly Vam - but I certainly feel
> > > > > > the same frustration. Perhaps the most amazing thing in the
> > current
> > > > > > 'debate' on economic plight is that the obvious issue is that a
> > tiny
> > > > > > rich hold ever increasing bags of swag whilst blaming everyone else
> > > > > > for the lack of money! This has been particularly true in Greece.
> > > > > > There's a good argument that capital is currently idle - companies
> > > > > > are sitting on much more cash than usual.
> > > > > > On Vam's point on science being too slow I'd take the view that the
> > > > > > problem is most people can't cope with its world-view, and deep in
> > > > > > that are issues that people can't cope with more than one, conflate
> > > > > > this with individuality and protect it at all costs. The despair
> > for
> > > > > > me is that I see all kinds of iniquity and there is rarely much I
> > can
> > > > > > do. My sense of this is that we fail to address power issues at
> > all
> > > > > > levels and these would be key to real change. What we should be
> > > > > > looking for is a system of free people who can organise their work
> > for
> > > > > > what is needed and this is a moral issue of legitimation.
> > > > > > What I would look at in the first place are those work systems in
> > > > > > which nearly all the participants cannot work their way to decent,
> > > > > > self-sustaining community. Examples would include Indian rural
> > > > > > farming where the only 'way out' is suicide (a quarter of a
> > million in
> > > > > > ten years), Gary Indiana and swathes of unemployment everywhere. I
> > > > > > cannot believe wages have to be linked to an endless and immoral
> > > > > > search to doing them down for the purpose of competitive advantage
> > -
> > > > > > or that consumption is any kind of model for economics when the
> > planet
> > > > > > can't take it. The body can't take it either when on looks at how
> > > > > > unhealthy we get.
>
> > > > > > What the rich are currently doing is seeking ownership of real
> > assets
> > > > > > in order to rent them out to the rest of us. The model is
> > ostensibly
> > > > > > more complex than money-lending in rural India, but actually much
> > the
> > > > > > same. The Greeks are supposed to put up with foreign ownership of
> > > > > > their soil and then work their way out of the mess - a clear case
> > of
> > > > > > economics as war by other means.
>
> > > > > > Any analysis will show that liquidity has been taken out of our
> > > > > > communities (not long ago the bottom half of UK and US people had
> > 14%
> > > > > > of liquid assets we can think of as cash - this is down to 1%) and
> > > > > > wages have spiralled down - without welfare (more than 50% get
> > some)
> > > > > > we'd have to work for less than the Chinese. Many who object to
> > > > > > welfare are in receipt of it! The situation is so stupid one finds
> > > > > > explanations like Laffer Curves to justify tax dodging by big
> > > > > > companies are seriously entertained and evidence they are dud
> > ignored.
> > > > > > Yet volunteer to put one's shoulder to the wheel and one can find
> > no
> > > > > > place to put the effort in - certainly not for fair reward. We
> > have
> > > > > > debates on whether bankers are worth vast bonuses - with no
> > > > > > consideration that such payments enslave unnamed others over
> > > > > > generations and without questions on why vast increases in
> > > > > > productivity are not shared in general living standards and
> > > > > > opportunity. This is a moral shambles (a term originating in
> > English
> > > > > > from 'butcher's yard').
>
> > > > > > To make money, even US university alumni funds are invested in
> > > > > > 'vulture funds' with Africans killed or turfed off land - much as
> > my
> > > > > > fellow Scots in the Enclosures. Tax not paid in order for
> > companies
> > > > > > (and a few individuals) to accumulate it is at the heart of the
> > mess.
> > > > > > No one should believe this is just a Greek matter. One can make
> > the
> > > > > > case that what's going on is good money (social capital) being
> > chased
> > > > > > out by bad.
>
> > > > > > The Greeks hate the Turks.
>
> > > > > > On Feb 17, 2:42 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > I started thinking about the Paris Commune but they left the
> > banks
> > > > > > > alone. :-) //One's rather short life span probably contributes
> > to our
> > > > > > > fuzzy comprehension along with a lack of maturity/independence
> > when
> > > > > > > important choices are made. Hopefully, the "list" will be
> > balanced in
> > > > > > > review- to see our errors as well as our successes. Also- some
> > "also
> > > > > > > serve who only stand and wait"- John Milton.
>
> > > > > > > On Feb 16, 10:42 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > This was great discussion, spot on ! Let me add some on
> > morals...
>
> > > > > > > > Morals are an individual function that serves " the " social
> > > > > > > > responsibility.
> > > > > > > > But the individual can be moral, have the reason to be moral,
> > > > > > > > and continue to be moral, ONLY to the extent he knows
> > > > > > > > AND REMEMBERS the " cause and effect " facts,
> > > > > > > > their value for himself and humanity... the truths.
>
> > > > > > > > Because, time separates the cause and effect. Most science...
> > > > physics,
> > > > > > > > chemistry, biology, medicine... the knowledge of it is gleaned
> > from
> > > > > > > > what is happening before our eyes, or over days and months,
>
>
> read more »
--
()|_D AllanLife is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
(
)
|_D Allan
Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
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