The Frogs) demonstrate how little changes. The original democracy
committed genocide when it found its treasury empty, killing off a
whole island people to take better economic advantage of its grain. I
agree entirely with rigsy. I suppose I have come to believe that
freedom from want is possible everywhere. My guess is a 20 hour 4-day
week would be enough work for this - the big question being why we
can't just look this up on a fact sheet. Giving people freedom from
want would then leave us free to decide on what else we would do.
On Feb 15, 2:14 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Our military seems to be switching to drones, Special Forces and
> automatic systems. The soldiers are urged into the police, fire and
> something else, I forget. For millions, the military has meant a
> second chance at life, stability, education, housing, etc.- what will
> they do now? Protest/riot and destroy some more architecture? And who
> wants to travel to some of these countries as a tourist?
>
> On Feb 15, 2:54 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I too believe in democracy, the problem I see it is those that do not
> > believe in democracy and do everything in their power to take advantage of
> > it at the and make it an autocratic government where they (corporate or
> > wealth) control not only the government, food and water. The basics
> > needed for a stable life.
>
> > As this group controls the wealth and military (including the USA) at this
> > point not much can be done, except maybe putting the correct labels on the
> > forms of governments. Most of the Governments have evolved into the
> > autocratic format.
>
> > If this is true the real question is how do we eliminate autocratic
> > government.
> > Allan
>
> > On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 7:30 AM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I see you missed my cue in ...
>
> > > "A very good question ! And, if not, what ?"
>
> > > I believe in democracy, not because of the models so far touted or how
> > > it is in practice in a many countries, but because, unlike you and
> > > Plato, I believe in people and chaos, and I trust the future for the
> > > improvements waiting in its wings.
>
> > > Perhaps, in the next 300 years...
>
> > > On Feb 15, 3:26 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > I rest my case on the grounds this house doesn't even have anyone
> > > > prepared to state they believe in democracy.
>
> > > > On Feb 14, 5:55 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > I wonder if there ever is national self-interest. India was a
> > > > > substantial cost to Britain in terms of taxes here, whilst the Nabobs
> > > > > made the loot. Apple is awash with offshore cash, benefiting from
> > > > > cheating on our quality of work life. Mao, in the biographies of
> > > > > those who knew him, was a highly self-interested monomaniacal mass
> > > > > murderer.
>
> > > > > On Feb 14, 2:16 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > During the 18th C. the pattern was English goods to India, India
> > > > > > cotton to China and China tea to Britain. Tea was the most
> > > profitable.
> > > > > > The Opium War...Treaty of Nanking (1842) pretty much sealed China's
> > > > > > fate and it didn't modernize as quickly as Japan. The chapter is a
> > > > > > sorry tale- most are. Then there are the internal rebellions
> > > (Taiping)
> > > > > > which killed 20-30 million. Clumsy American policy- here and there.
> > > > > > Anyway, I am left with sympathy and respect for China. Again, it is
> > > > > > superior weapons and national self-interest that overwhelms- a broken
> > > > > > record.
>
> > > > > > On Feb 13, 9:38 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > The idea of replacing democracy with something else is interesting
> > > Vam
> > > > > > > - but what would get to the heart of the ineducable demos problem
> > > > > > > without a vile and elitist aristocracy (as I suspect we have now)?
> > > > > > > You keep some junk rigsy! I play bridge on my PC. An autocrat,
> > > > > > > methinks you ain't. They lack humour and irony. At some point
> > > Gabby
> > > > > > > you have to be reflexive on whatever stings you to sting. Pretty
> > > much
> > > > > > > anything is up for attack as tyranny, from chronic political
> > > > > > > correctness to tolerance that tolerates everything.
>
> > > > > > > I suspect out current situation is defined by a moment in 1906
> > > (ish)
> > > > > > > when British, US, French, Russian and Japanese (built in UK)
> > > warships
> > > > > > > were queuing up at China's door to put down the Boxer revolt (done
> > > > > > > with extreme prejudice) and the Blue Book at the UK treasury listed
> > > > > > > heroin profits with no shame. Imperialism has merely shifted to a
> > > > > > > more US base, largely because the planned British, French and
> > > Russian
> > > > > > > "invasion" to support the Confederacy in 1861 didn't get financed
> > > > > > > (there were meetings in Berlin to divide the world).
>
> > > > > > > My own view takes the main issue as providing systems in which no
> > > one
> > > > > > > lives in want. This is no simple matter and inevitably raises
> > > control
> > > > > > > issues, including population control and wealth distribution
> > > control.
> > > > > > > We have to do some conceptually with what we allow as bureaucracy
> > > and
> > > > > > > how we think of freedom and power. Those granted control have to
> > > be
> > > > > > > granted it in a manner that can be controlled by the rest of us. I
> > > > > > > suspect that to get to the rub of any of this requires we
> > > understand
> > > > > > > that this is a world of plenty ruined by much of what we currently
> > > > > > > do. A key component would be for leaders to be more randomly
> > > selected
> > > > > > > (from a qualified list) for temporary service and living ordinary
> > > > > > > lives for most of their span - thus being of the society they help
> > > > > > > create (Max Weber's 'iron cage of bureaucracy' helps a bit here as
> > > > > > > something to avoid).
>
> > > > > > > A key behavioural component in need of debunking is 'identity
> > > > > > > conflated with world-view' - broadly people being so dumb they
> > > don't
> > > > > > > realise they have merely copied Idols rather than found
> > > > > > > individuality. We mimic thinking we have actually found something
> > > > > > > individual. This probably prevents us having a decently rational
> > > > > > > fellowship. Religion is a bete noir here and yet a possible
> > > > > > > solution.
>
> > > > > > > On Feb 13, 2:38 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > No- to your last question- but it's tough sledding to be an
> > > autocrat.
> > > > > > > > I guess I am an independent conservative with senses of humor and
> > > > > > > > despair. By the way, you were right about attempts to modernize
> > > > > > > > Afghanistan in the 30's- which failed- so thank you. There was a
> > > good
> > > > > > > > article in my 1958 Enclyclopaedia Britannica which led to my
> > > moving
> > > > > > > > the furniture around in the den so I could get to the volumes
> > > along
> > > > > > > > with Ridpath's history volumes and then- sit down- I lugged up
> > > the old
> > > > > > > > Commodore 64 so I could play a bridge program, etc. having lost
> > > the
> > > > > > > > art of finesse along the way.
>
> > > > > > > > On Feb 12, 11:04 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > I don't believe in democracy as standardly dreamed up. The
> > > problem is
> > > > > > > > > an idiot demos. But my contention is that I believe in the
> > > rights of
> > > > > > > > > this demos more than most who claim to be democrats. Most
> > > situations
> > > > > > > > > in everyday life contain no true democracy - work being the
> > > classic.
> > > > > > > > > We rarely believe social groups can work without a chain of
> > > command.
>
> > > > > > > > > There are alternatives to "strong leadership" (which gives us
> > > goons
> > > > > > > > > like Blair, Bush, Putin, hitler - etc. the list is almost
> > > endless) and
> > > > > > > > > the farce of the current GOP list. The Dutch polder system is
> > > an
> > > > > > > > > example. But we generally shy away from collective decision
> > > making as
> > > > > > > > > too slow.
>
> > > > > > > > > Anti-democracy is built in to our systems. Think about our
> > > likely
> > > > > > > > > collective reluctance to pay me 90% of our resources if we had
> > > a
> > > > > > > > > business - yet we might not understand how those few doing
> > > such taking
> > > > > > > > > in the general economy take in the same way from us through
> > > ideology
> > > > > > > > > of the deserving rich. We would easily be able to vote
> > > against 'my
> > > > > > > > > 90%' - but how do we vote against Apple's sweatshops and cash
> > > held
> > > > > > > > > offshore?
>
> > > > > > > > > Are you a democrat?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > --
> > (
> > )
> > |_D Allan
>
> > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
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