stuff that genie back in the bottle. I probably spoiled at least two
sons in their expectations by staying home- I did work a couple of
years. But then, that was luck and personal choice. Well, war is
certainly one means of population control along with spurring much
wealth in certain industries. There is enough- it's just not
distributed or chemical companies have ruined crop lands and herds and
water...
On Feb 16, 2:45 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm struck that the old fables and plays (as in the men of brass in
> The Frogs) demonstrate how little changes. The original democracy
> committed genocide when it found its treasury empty, killing off a
> whole island people to take better economic advantage of its grain. I
> agree entirely with rigsy. I suppose I have come to believe that
> freedom from want is possible everywhere. My guess is a 20 hour 4-day
> week would be enough work for this - the big question being why we
> can't just look this up on a fact sheet. Giving people freedom from
> want would then leave us free to decide on what else we would do.
>
> On Feb 15, 2:14 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Our military seems to be switching to drones, Special Forces and
> > automatic systems. The soldiers are urged into the police, fire and
> > something else, I forget. For millions, the military has meant a
> > second chance at life, stability, education, housing, etc.- what will
> > they do now? Protest/riot and destroy some more architecture? And who
> > wants to travel to some of these countries as a tourist?
>
> > On Feb 15, 2:54 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I too believe in democracy, the problem I see it is those that do not
> > > believe in democracy and do everything in their power to take advantage of
> > > it at the and make it an autocratic government where they (corporate or
> > > wealth) control not only the government, food and water. The basics
> > > needed for a stable life.
>
> > > As this group controls the wealth and military (including the USA) at this
> > > point not much can be done, except maybe putting the correct labels on the
> > > forms of governments. Most of the Governments have evolved into the
> > > autocratic format.
>
> > > If this is true the real question is how do we eliminate autocratic
> > > government.
> > > Allan
>
> > > On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 7:30 AM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > I see you missed my cue in ...
>
> > > > "A very good question ! And, if not, what ?"
>
> > > > I believe in democracy, not because of the models so far touted or how
> > > > it is in practice in a many countries, but because, unlike you and
> > > > Plato, I believe in people and chaos, and I trust the future for the
> > > > improvements waiting in its wings.
>
> > > > Perhaps, in the next 300 years...
>
> > > > On Feb 15, 3:26 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > I rest my case on the grounds this house doesn't even have anyone
> > > > > prepared to state they believe in democracy.
>
> > > > > On Feb 14, 5:55 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > I wonder if there ever is national self-interest. India was a
> > > > > > substantial cost to Britain in terms of taxes here, whilst the Nabobs
> > > > > > made the loot. Apple is awash with offshore cash, benefiting from
> > > > > > cheating on our quality of work life. Mao, in the biographies of
> > > > > > those who knew him, was a highly self-interested monomaniacal mass
> > > > > > murderer.
>
> > > > > > On Feb 14, 2:16 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > During the 18th C. the pattern was English goods to India, India
> > > > > > > cotton to China and China tea to Britain. Tea was the most
> > > > profitable.
> > > > > > > The Opium War...Treaty of Nanking (1842) pretty much sealed China's
> > > > > > > fate and it didn't modernize as quickly as Japan. The chapter is a
> > > > > > > sorry tale- most are. Then there are the internal rebellions
> > > > (Taiping)
> > > > > > > which killed 20-30 million. Clumsy American policy- here and there.
> > > > > > > Anyway, I am left with sympathy and respect for China. Again, it is
> > > > > > > superior weapons and national self-interest that overwhelms- a broken
> > > > > > > record.
>
> > > > > > > On Feb 13, 9:38 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > The idea of replacing democracy with something else is interesting
> > > > Vam
> > > > > > > > - but what would get to the heart of the ineducable demos problem
> > > > > > > > without a vile and elitist aristocracy (as I suspect we have now)?
> > > > > > > > You keep some junk rigsy! I play bridge on my PC. An autocrat,
> > > > > > > > methinks you ain't. They lack humour and irony. At some point
> > > > Gabby
> > > > > > > > you have to be reflexive on whatever stings you to sting. Pretty
> > > > much
> > > > > > > > anything is up for attack as tyranny, from chronic political
> > > > > > > > correctness to tolerance that tolerates everything.
>
> > > > > > > > I suspect out current situation is defined by a moment in 1906
> > > > (ish)
> > > > > > > > when British, US, French, Russian and Japanese (built in UK)
> > > > warships
> > > > > > > > were queuing up at China's door to put down the Boxer revolt (done
> > > > > > > > with extreme prejudice) and the Blue Book at the UK treasury listed
> > > > > > > > heroin profits with no shame. Imperialism has merely shifted to a
> > > > > > > > more US base, largely because the planned British, French and
> > > > Russian
> > > > > > > > "invasion" to support the Confederacy in 1861 didn't get financed
> > > > > > > > (there were meetings in Berlin to divide the world).
>
> > > > > > > > My own view takes the main issue as providing systems in which no
> > > > one
> > > > > > > > lives in want. This is no simple matter and inevitably raises
> > > > control
> > > > > > > > issues, including population control and wealth distribution
> > > > control.
> > > > > > > > We have to do some conceptually with what we allow as bureaucracy
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > how we think of freedom and power. Those granted control have to
> > > > be
> > > > > > > > granted it in a manner that can be controlled by the rest of us. I
> > > > > > > > suspect that to get to the rub of any of this requires we
> > > > understand
> > > > > > > > that this is a world of plenty ruined by much of what we currently
> > > > > > > > do. A key component would be for leaders to be more randomly
> > > > selected
> > > > > > > > (from a qualified list) for temporary service and living ordinary
> > > > > > > > lives for most of their span - thus being of the society they help
> > > > > > > > create (Max Weber's 'iron cage of bureaucracy' helps a bit here as
> > > > > > > > something to avoid).
>
> > > > > > > > A key behavioural component in need of debunking is 'identity
> > > > > > > > conflated with world-view' - broadly people being so dumb they
> > > > don't
> > > > > > > > realise they have merely copied Idols rather than found
> > > > > > > > individuality. We mimic thinking we have actually found something
> > > > > > > > individual. This probably prevents us having a decently rational
> > > > > > > > fellowship. Religion is a bete noir here and yet a possible
> > > > > > > > solution.
>
> > > > > > > > On Feb 13, 2:38 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > No- to your last question- but it's tough sledding to be an
> > > > autocrat.
> > > > > > > > > I guess I am an independent conservative with senses of humor and
> > > > > > > > > despair. By the way, you were right about attempts to modernize
> > > > > > > > > Afghanistan in the 30's- which failed- so thank you. There was a
> > > > good
> > > > > > > > > article in my 1958 Enclyclopaedia Britannica which led to my
> > > > moving
> > > > > > > > > the furniture around in the den so I could get to the volumes
> > > > along
> > > > > > > > > with Ridpath's history volumes and then- sit down- I lugged up
> > > > the old
> > > > > > > > > Commodore 64 so I could play a bridge program, etc. having lost
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > art of finesse along the way.
>
> > > > > > > > > On Feb 12, 11:04 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > I don't believe in democracy as standardly dreamed up. The
> > > > problem is
> > > > > > > > > > an idiot demos. But my contention is that I believe in the
> > > > rights of
> > > > > > > > > > this demos more than most who claim to be democrats. Most
> > > > situations
> > > > > > > > > > in everyday life contain no true democracy - work being the
> > > > classic.
> > > > > > > > > > We rarely believe social groups can work without a chain of
> > > > command.
>
> > > > > > > > > > There are alternatives to "strong leadership" (which gives us
> > > > goons
> > > > > > > > > > like Blair, Bush, Putin, hitler - etc. the list is almost
> > > > endless) and
> > > > > > > > > > the farce of the current GOP list. The Dutch polder system is
> > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > example. But we generally shy away from collective decision
> > > > making as
> > > > > > > > > > too slow.
>
> > > > > > > > > > Anti-democracy is built in to our systems. Think about our
> > > > likely
> > > > > > > > > > collective reluctance to pay me 90% of our resources if we had
> > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > business - yet we might not understand how those few doing
> > > > such taking
> > > > > > > > > > in the general economy take in the same way from us through
> > > > ideology
> > > > > > > > > > of the deserving rich. We would easily be able to vote
> > > > against 'my
> > > > > > > > > > 90%' - but how do we vote against Apple's sweatshops and cash
> > > > held
> > > > > > > > > > offshore?
>
> > > > > > > > > > Are you a democrat?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > --
> > > (
> > > )
> > > |_D Allan
>
> > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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