Aristophanes play (The Frogs 400BC?):
The course our city runs is the same towards men and money.
She has true and worthy sons.
She has fine new gold and ancient silver,
Coins untouched with alloys, gold or silver,
Each well minted, tested each and ringing clear.
Yet we never use them!
Others pass from hand to hand,
Sorry brass just struck last week and branded with a wretched brand.
So with men we know for upright, blameless lives and noble names.
These we spurn for men of brass..
I reckon Apple is a good case study on a lot that's going wrong - I
regard their products as disgusting because of the work practices and
won't buy them. There's a decent video here for anyone who doesn't
know - http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/02/what-to-do-about-apple-and-fraud-friendly-manufacturing-in-china.html
- there is no need for us to organise competition like this. I doubt
the pc I'm using now was any more morally produced of course.
Wittgenstein often modelled his argument on deconstruction to show the
same daft assumptions were at the bottom of apparently contradicting
arguments. I always appreciate Gabby's jibes that all kinds of people
make themselves idiots in urging morality on others - a danger we
should always be aware of - but frankly in a world in which carrying
an i-Phone means carrying disgusting manufacturing squalor, we need
some morality before we harden to fascism.
On Feb 14, 6:43 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> * think in a way you are right,, it would be chaos,, but remember the US is
> a republic not a democracy.*
> *Allan
> *
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> On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 3:52 AM, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > What I think is implied is to overcome an implicit fault (individuals
> > and organizations greed, collusion) with a better option. I'm jumping
> > in with little on this (per my MO) but the next question becomes what
> > can we implement that would make the rewards of desirable behavior
> > greatly outweigh individual greed. So by offering a positive outlet
> > for something we cannot eradicate we use it as an advantage. Back to
> > my jumping in with little: what in the world could we do to accomplish
> > or begin such a thing? ;-)
>
> > You are probably right about true democracy requiring MUCH more
> > effort, it is interesting to consider by whom and how it could be
> > organized. Like a game of cards over discussion of the impacts of
> > water regulations on a local farming community. Raise a question and
> > people just point you to some reading or say, 'you gotta talk to
> > Steve, he knows everything about that aspect. He plays on Tuesdays."
> > Something tells me that is how things happen now, except it is with
> > select individuals. Direct democracy sounds like chaos, but I wonder
> > what could come of it!
>
> > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:54 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > The problem with democracy does not lay in the concept but those who
> > > manipulate the principal for their personal gain or wealth.. the real
> > > question is how do you eliminate the greed from democracy? Maybe a
> > > communal democracy where all wealth and expenses are shared from the
> > > wealth equally?
> > > Allan
>
> > > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 4:38 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >> The idea of replacing democracy with something else is interesting Vam
> > >> - but what would get to the heart of the ineducable demos problem
> > >> without a vile and elitist aristocracy (as I suspect we have now)?
> > >> You keep some junk rigsy! I play bridge on my PC. An autocrat,
> > >> methinks you ain't. They lack humour and irony. At some point Gabby
> > >> you have to be reflexive on whatever stings you to sting. Pretty much
> > >> anything is up for attack as tyranny, from chronic political
> > >> correctness to tolerance that tolerates everything.
>
> > >> I suspect out current situation is defined by a moment in 1906 (ish)
> > >> when British, US, French, Russian and Japanese (built in UK) warships
> > >> were queuing up at China's door to put down the Boxer revolt (done
> > >> with extreme prejudice) and the Blue Book at the UK treasury listed
> > >> heroin profits with no shame. Imperialism has merely shifted to a
> > >> more US base, largely because the planned British, French and Russian
> > >> "invasion" to support the Confederacy in 1861 didn't get financed
> > >> (there were meetings in Berlin to divide the world).
>
> > >> My own view takes the main issue as providing systems in which no one
> > >> lives in want. This is no simple matter and inevitably raises control
> > >> issues, including population control and wealth distribution control.
> > >> We have to do some conceptually with what we allow as bureaucracy and
> > >> how we think of freedom and power. Those granted control have to be
> > >> granted it in a manner that can be controlled by the rest of us. I
> > >> suspect that to get to the rub of any of this requires we understand
> > >> that this is a world of plenty ruined by much of what we currently
> > >> do. A key component would be for leaders to be more randomly selected
> > >> (from a qualified list) for temporary service and living ordinary
> > >> lives for most of their span - thus being of the society they help
> > >> create (Max Weber's 'iron cage of bureaucracy' helps a bit here as
> > >> something to avoid).
>
> > >> A key behavioural component in need of debunking is 'identity
> > >> conflated with world-view' - broadly people being so dumb they don't
> > >> realise they have merely copied Idols rather than found
> > >> individuality. We mimic thinking we have actually found something
> > >> individual. This probably prevents us having a decently rational
> > >> fellowship. Religion is a bete noir here and yet a possible
> > >> solution.
>
> > >> On Feb 13, 2:38 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> > No- to your last question- but it's tough sledding to be an autocrat.
> > >> > I guess I am an independent conservative with senses of humor and
> > >> > despair. By the way, you were right about attempts to modernize
> > >> > Afghanistan in the 30's- which failed- so thank you. There was a good
> > >> > article in my 1958 Enclyclopaedia Britannica which led to my moving
> > >> > the furniture around in the den so I could get to the volumes along
> > >> > with Ridpath's history volumes and then- sit down- I lugged up the old
> > >> > Commodore 64 so I could play a bridge program, etc. having lost the
> > >> > art of finesse along the way.
>
> > >> > On Feb 12, 11:04 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >> > > I don't believe in democracy as standardly dreamed up. The problem
> > is
> > >> > > an idiot demos. But my contention is that I believe in the rights
> > of
> > >> > > this demos more than most who claim to be democrats. Most
> > situations
> > >> > > in everyday life contain no true democracy - work being the classic.
> > >> > > We rarely believe social groups can work without a chain of command.
>
> > >> > > There are alternatives to "strong leadership" (which gives us goons
> > >> > > like Blair, Bush, Putin, hitler - etc. the list is almost endless)
> > and
> > >> > > the farce of the current GOP list. The Dutch polder system is an
> > >> > > example. But we generally shy away from collective decision making
> > as
> > >> > > too slow.
>
> > >> > > Anti-democracy is built in to our systems. Think about our likely
> > >> > > collective reluctance to pay me 90% of our resources if we had a
> > >> > > business - yet we might not understand how those few doing such
> > taking
> > >> > > in the general economy take in the same way from us through ideology
> > >> > > of the deserving rich. We would easily be able to vote against 'my
> > >> > > 90%' - but how do we vote against Apple's sweatshops and cash held
> > >> > > offshore?
>
> > >> > > Are you a democrat?
>
> > > --
> > > (
> > > )
> > > |_D Allan
>
> > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> --
> (
> )
> |_D Allan
>
> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
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