Allan
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On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 2:07 AM, James Lynch <ashkashal@gmail.com> wrote:
Oops, wrong thread! Ringing head, dizziness, and nausea are starting
to bug me, distracting too. Enough already. Be well everyone. :)
On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 7:04 PM, James Lynch <ashkashal@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you don't think your students pick up on a slight hesitation or
> unconscious facial signal that a theory is bunk I think you are
> selling yourself short Neil. We are in a rapidly changing world, but
> some things haven't, conscience for example, you have the haves and
> have-nots. I think there is compelling evidence that we could live
> more fulfilling lives in the service to mankind, but when faced with
> the decision to sink or float/soar many are doing what they think is
> necessary even if it is rotting at the core of civilisation. We will
> craft our beliefs of right and wrong to fit the world we know, mostly
> I think. Identity and seeing oneself in the mirror helps but requires
> more than a single image as we need comparisons, it would help to say
> hey something else would work and people are doing it. A new labor
> class perhaps, philosophically motivated?
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 6:40 PM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I think we are always stuck in an irrational situation, generally the
>> makings of others. Science makes some kind of clearing for
>> rationality and inventiveness. Heidegger opined on clearings as being
>> amongst the real things of the world rather than facing them in
>> thought 'where the backs were missing, but that didn't help him see
>> the Nazis for what they were. One can probably "curl up" by taking
>> action - as a cop in a pub brawl or whatever our countries ask of us
>> as soldiers, our societies of mothers and so on. I've found myself
>> coping in action fully aware of its ludicrous nature and wondering if
>> there is any freedom from it other than that given by adrenaline and
>> the steel put in in training to do the noxious.
>> There's a strange rationale that we somehow have to do what's right in
>> what is already an irrational mess and act as though rational against
>> some bigger picture that we are the good guys - a view unseated
>> everywhere by realistic history. The question for me is whether we
>> can do much with our knowledge in a world in which few will give up on
>> the comfort of knowing very little.
>>
>> On Feb 1, 11:50 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Also- I think if we really knew the consequences of our acts and
>>> choices we might just curl up into a ball and do nothing. One friend
>>> and I chuckle that we're all pretty much on an assembly line...
>>>
>>> On Feb 1, 5:27 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Just to clarify my thought- that luck and timing can be good, bad or
>>> > indifferent. Also rather than active thinking being a debate, it is
>>> > more like selection. Literature and social sciences deal with layered
>>> > communication- for instance, withholding facts, feelings or motives.
>>> > It is often called discretion. :-) How do you mean "identity"?
>>>
>>> > On Jan 31, 11:09 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > The 'making sense of things later' seems true even in the split second
>>> > > in brain research. I regard all strategy as retrospectively devised!
>>> > > There's a book just out by Hill and Myatt (economists) on just how
>>> > > facile economics teaching is in universities - but this contains
>>> > > nothing on how this has happened. Some of this seems to me connected
>>> > > with a lack of movement beyond identity Molly.
>>>
>>> > > On Jan 31, 1:30 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > Part of human nature is to identify with people, thoughts, ideas
>>> > > > around us. Being able to witness your identification, and moving
>>> > > > beyond it is the real treasure.
>>>
>>> > > > On Jan 29, 9:10 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > > Molly your question has my mind running around its dust bins. Most my
>>> > > > > thoughts are not original but more composites of other ideas. They are like
>>> > > > > hand me downs,, like the 3D image comes from watching how people search
>>> > > > > for treasure on sunken vessels, it is rags from a different ?idea?.
>>>
>>> > > > > My world is a world of rags in the form of other ideas.
>>> > > > > Allan
>>> > > > > On Jan 29, 2012 8:21 PM, "Allan H" <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > > > Yeah it is kind of like an old dog sappen on his favorite bone.
>>>
>>> > > > > > it is trying to understand others, and what I have experienced As I have
>>> > > > > > very few friends that like discussing God I talk to myself a lot..which is
>>> > > > > > no problem as I am never really alone,.
>>> > > > > > Allan
>>>
>>> > > > > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 3:05 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > > >> Not at all irrelevant. did you have more thoughts about this?
>>>
>>> > > > > >> On Jan 28, 10:19 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > > > > >> > Hi Mol&Rigs, listening to you two I've been asking myself why none of
>>> > > > > >> > you mentions Jung and his description of the collective unconscious. I
>>> > > > > >> > haven't read the Red Book yet, but maybe of of you has and could tell
>>> > > > > >> > me why this is irrelevant to what you are discussing.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > On Jan 27, 2:35 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > The paramount paradox.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > On Jan 27, 8:21 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > Yes- I've read a lot of Campbell and admire his efforts. In fact, I
>>> > > > > >> > > > was going to put the Oriental Mythology of his Masks of God series
>>> > > > > >> > > > aside to reread- Indian, Chinese and Japanese chapters. I wish I
>>> > > > > >> could
>>> > > > > >> > > > keep certain studies on top of my thinking but maybe I have read so
>>> > > > > >> > > > much there is a chute to forgetfulness or a pit of scrambled
>>> > > > > >> > > > ideas! :-) Oh, dear!
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > However, back to your comment about looking back/within. I consider
>>> > > > > >> > > > there is impossible split between the spiritual and material and yet
>>> > > > > >> > > > that is our struggle to bridge- if possible.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > On Jan 27, 6:32 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > Do myths disappear? Joseph Campbell mapped common human myth
>>> > > > > >> around
>>> > > > > >> > > > > the word and through time to discover a mechanism something close
>>> > > > > >> to
>>> > > > > >> > > > > common memory - the expression of the same archetypes in real
>>> > > > > >> time,
>>> > > > > >> > > > > isolated incidents around the globe and at the same time. This
>>> > > > > >> > > > > phenomena has occurred throughout human history. This may tell us
>>> > > > > >> > > > > that it is not the looking back that is important, but as Vam
>>> > > > > >> says,
>>> > > > > >> > > > > looking within.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > On Jan 26, 5:54 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > What is original? I might argue that one is simply explicating
>>> > > > > >> what
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > already exists.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > Each generation assumes it has a distinct character- or needs
>>> > > > > >> to prove
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > that it has.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > Was thinking the reason myths disappear is because they were
>>> > > > > >> oral and
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > native languages are usually suppressed by the conquerors. One
>>> > > > > >> also
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > carries family myths- which interfere with deep communication.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > Yes- there are terrible inequities- all the more scandalous
>>> > > > > >> because
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > there really is plenty to go around so the root is greed and
>>> > > > > >> distain
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > for others. Governments only pretend to care for all its
>>> > > > > >> citizens- it
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > picks and chooses.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > We passed the Gilded Age- I would call this the Tinsel Age.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > On Jan 25, 9:45 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > I would say, Vam, that you often jump in the water with an
>>> > > > > >> 'entourage'
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > of assumptive baggage. I probably dislike citation more than
>>> > > > > >> you and
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > am not the first. Veblen would be a good start (to use some
>>> > > > > >> rough
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > citation). These days, you can at least Google the name.
>>> > > > > >> When I
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > started it meant a trip to the library. Anyone who has the
>>> > > > > >> chance to
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > read a lot of what's available (this is still remarkably few)
>>> > > > > >> should
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > discover most of what they thought their own ideas have been
>>> > > > > >> done
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > before. The idea is no doubt to try to 'stand on the
>>> > > > > >> shoulders of
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > giants' (itself a wisecrack by Newton on Hooke's dwarfish
>>> > > > > >> stature).
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > The 'giants' always turn out flawed. Moses is a war criminal
>>> > > > > >> in
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > Numbers 31, the Greeks, for all their argument, never
>>> > > > > >> produced a
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > decent one against slavery (the lunatic-religious John Brown
>>> > > > > >> being
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > better). Many, because they don't read enough, attribute
>>> > > > > >> 'relativity'
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > to Einstein, but it has a longer and wider history. The
>>> > > > > >> chattering
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > class reinvents the square wheel all over the place.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > What if the best of our system is fascist and we have grown
>>> > > > > >> in such
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > culture, or a caste system? By what processes do we get an
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > understanding for change from such? Western propaganda would
>>> > > > > >> have us
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > believe pouring resources into the gullets of the rich is
>>> > > > > >> sensible.
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > We all live in the gutter. Only some of us lift our eyes to
>>> > > > > >> the
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > stars. If only I was smart enough to have been first to
>>> > > > > >> that! (Oscar
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > Wilde) A common jibe by academics is that common sense is
>>> > > > > >> that which
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > allows us to believe the world is flat - yet flat-earth was an
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > academic construction - one can actually see the curvature of
>>> > > > > >> the
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > Earth.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > What we need is reliable collective memory. Given our
>>> > > > > >> capacity to
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > pervert, citation is usually used in a highly selective
>>> > > > > >> manner,
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > usually along with a core academic (religious etc.) narrative
>>> > > > > >> of
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > exclusion of competing argument. Control of what is reliable
>>> > > > > >> memory
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > is, of course, just what those in power want to maintain -
>>> > > > > >> perhaps
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > through principles of Home and Vanity. I will always prefer
>>> > > > > >> the
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > margins to this, remembering that to oppose tyranny can
>>> > > > > >> pervert into
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > its support.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > Deconstruction is only a beginning. I believe its spirit
>>> > > > > >> concerns a
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > defeat of madness that includes rationalist fantasy and animal
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > consensus (which I sense as grasping, selfish individualism
>>> > > > > >> easy to
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > rule).
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > On Jan 25, 3:26 am, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > "Is this not an important part of the dynamic
>>> > > > > >> multidimensional mind
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > Vam, can you find nothing of value with meeting this view
>>> > > > > >> at least as
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > a challenge?"
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > James, starting with God is a bad idea. Perhaps, ending up
>>> > > > > >> at it is
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > what needs to happen. Dawkins was in Jaipur here and I
>>> > > > > >> found his view
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > a lot more balanced, less bigoted and militant.
>>>
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > And Neil is right : it must deal with morality. Where his
>>> > > > > >> discourse
>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > runs dry is when he is quoting other people ! That is also
>>> > > > > >> my
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> read more »
(
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|_D Allan
Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
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