Re: Mind's Eye Re: What is the individual?

A good joke was mentioned AL!

On Mar 1, 7:11 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Gabby what is black an white an red all over?
> Allan
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> On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 10:09 AM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Puh, Molly, the "because it also brings joy" is like explaining why you
> > should laugh about my funny joke.
>
> > On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> The wrath of Christ toward the money changers in the temple is
> >> repeated in us until recognized.  Recognition is the key.  the
> >> rational mind will always reason and compare because that is the
> >> necessary function of it.  When we base our identity in these
> >> comparisons, we limit our own natures, because they are limited.
> >> Witnessing not only what we think about, the form of the thought, but
> >> how we think, our thinking processes, is what gets us beyond the
> >> limitation of thinking.  We get beyond with recognition.  Experiencing
> >> the world with a silent mind is like standing on the best viewpoint in
> >> the Grand Canyon.  Exhilarating.  Being able to maintain a quiet mind
> >> the majority of the time requires not only recognition (and
> >> detachment) of thought, but the process of thinking.  Thinking doesn't
> >> stop.  We stop basing our identities in it, and we use it less.
>
> >> Few things bring us to the recognition of our experience beyond
> >> thought like a good laugh, because it also brings joy.
>
> >> On Feb 27, 1:49 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > I don't disagree with Molly, though I was just presenting what her
> >> > words 'rang' in me.  My belief is that consciousness in used too
> >> > infrequently - the basics of the mess of our communities and people is
> >> > unconscious and broadly animal (the mess includes some good stuff).
> >> > Consciousness is too easily overcome by cunning, and, as Molly says,
> >> > narcissism.
> >> > What has struck me for a long time is how difficult it is to present
> >> > argument because it's too difficult to get anyone to take part
> >> > 'honestly' - this is particularly difficult for teachers these days!
> >> > In some areas, I have stopped thinking in standard ways - gender is an
> >> > example.  I tend to see in terms of certain types being fascinated by
> >> > trinkets, fashion, gossip - one could imagine a shaggy dog story here
> >> > in which these types all turn out to be women - but honestly that's
> >> > not what I mean.  I'm not interested in my identity as a man - but in
> >> > terms of what I'm able to be and do - maleness is largely a
> >> > constraint, animal and not much I want.  The opportunities for
> >> > identity seem very much off-the-peg and already detailed to copy.  One
> >> > modern identity that interests me is that of the 'empty creditor' -
> >> > those who bring bankruptcy about through derivatives wangles.  Some of
> >> > my students clearly see such as models to copy - shrewd in money-
> >> > making.  The image of this identity in me is more one of the vile
> >> > usurer demanding sex through threats of eviction in silent film.  The
> >> > apparatchiks quickly became entrepreneurchiks once Soviet rhetoric
> >> > gave way to World Bank trash.  There is surely a false individualism
> >> > that is merely chameleon-like?  And soul is denied RP.  I suspect mine
> >> > troubles me and I don't not welcome that given what I see around me!
>
> >> > On Feb 26, 3:53 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > > The thes [THEs] that define this may come in undivided by duality,
> >> what
> >> > > they have been multiplied with is to be experienced nevertheless.
>
> >> > > On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 3:25 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > > > The one who is aware of oneself and the others is the individual  --
> >> > > > and that cannot be without consciousness. The one that is
> >> unconscious
> >> > > > is not an individual but the Soul from which all the individualities
> >> > > > emanate. The identity is just the covering of an individuality.
>
> >> > > > On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 7:33 PM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > > > > Ideas of identity are related to matter - I allow that to happen
> >> every
> >> > > > > night.
>
> >> > > > > On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 2:40 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> > > > >> I know my view is not that of the world..  if it was  there
> >> would have
> >> > > > >> been massive changes long ago,,  the best I can hope for is to
> >> ask the
> >> > > > right
> >> > > > >> questions,  throw out some ideas,,  in talking with young people
> >> and
> >> > > > >> hopefully they may start thinking and come up with ideas that
> >> they
> >> > > > might be
> >> > > > >> able to bring about change.. they are the one that have the
> >> > > > responsibility
> >> > > > >> now. My role at best would be of that of an elder.
>
> >> > > > >> I do know you can not pay off debt with more debt. all though
> >> people
> >> > > > will
> >> > > > >> try to convince you that you can do it with poverty. whether
> >> they like
> >> > > > it or
> >> > > > >> not their souls are at risk.
>
> >> > > > >> Our ideas need to be put out there for examination whether they
> >> are
> >> > > > right
> >> > > > >> or wrong, it doesn't matter..
> >> > > > >> Allan
>
> >> > > > >> On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> > > > >>> If what is on either side of the equal sign goes both ways, your
> >> > > > >>> interpretation of my statement would be accurate.  I think I was
> >> > > > >>> saying that we confuse our world view for what is in actuality,
> >> our
> >> > > > >>> individual view.  In other words, we sometimes think the whole
> >> world
> >> > > > >>> has a view that is actually just ours in the moment.  There is a
> >> > > > >>> narcissistic psychology to this that seems to be prevalent in
> >> those
> >> > > > >>> that need to feel themselves "right" or superior or more
> >> powerful.
> >> > > > >>> I've also found it interesting that everyone else in the room
> >> can
> >> > > > >>> sometimes see it, but the person espousing.  A good absurd joke
> >> can
> >> > > > >>> bust through that illusion and humble us in a way that brings
> >> us to
> >> > > > >>> the point of knowing that we know nothing, it is all a matter
> >> of view.
>
> >> > > > >>> To discuss individuality, we should probably discuss identity,
> >> which
> >> > > > >>> is what the narcissist will defend to the end, needing to be
> >> right,
> >> > > > >>> see others as wrong and so on.  How we create our identities
> >> has a
> >> > > > >>> direct relationship to consciousness, because as more of our
> >> > > > >>> consciousness is found in the infinite, and less in
> >> limitations, we
> >> > > > >>> quite naturally let go of our stories, identity, our values -
> >> and they
> >> > > > >>> are aligned with the eternal.  We are by design, both finite and
> >> > > > >>> infinite.  Our identities are steeped in duality and limitation.
> >> > > > >>> After a long day a work, a good comedy routine can help shed
> >> all the
> >> > > > >>> tensions of the day, and restore my harmony.  Resting
> >> my(our)self(ves)
> >> > > > >>> in the paradox of the one and the many brings a good nights
> >> sleep.
>
> >> > > > >>> On Feb 24, 4:06 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > > > >>> > Molly made the point in another thread that we conflate
> >> individuality
> >> > > > >>> > with what is really a world-view.    Most of us like to think
> >> we have
> >> > > > >>> > a good quota of individuality - but then express this as
> >> dedicated
> >> > > > >>> > followers of fashion.  I know as a teacher that trying to set
> >> up
> >> > > > >>> > lessons that students really take hold of and do their own
> >> thing in
> >> > > > >>> > relies an having some pretty unusual people in.  Most
> >> students claim
> >> > > > >>> > to want to do their own thing, but the vast majority will do
> >> no
> >> > > > >>> > constructive work (even against my open standards on what
> >> this can
> >> > > > be)
> >> > > > >>> > if they have to organise it themselves.  US society is often
> >> claimed
> >> > > > >>> > to be the most individualistic in the world - yet look at the
> >> > > > >>> > organisation in American Football.
>
> >> > > > >>> > My own view is that our lack of individuality actually arises
> >> from
> >> > > > the
> >> > > > >>> > promulgation of celebrity, either as in mad political cults
> >> or via
> >> > > > >>> > 'International Hollywood'.  An example of the first is North
> >> Korea
> >> > > > >>> > and, of course, we are the prime example of the latter.  In
> >> our case,
> >> > > > >>> > the ready-to-hand of ADMASS means we have almost no real
> >> public
> >> > > > >>> > dialogue as everything is mediated through the crass world
> >> view and
> >> > > > >>> > most people have soaked this up as their individuality.
> >>  Quine made
> >> > > > >>> > the point long ago that the notion of evidence is difficult
> >> because
> >> > > > of
> >> > > > >>> > something like this.  People think the evidence has come from
> >> the
> >> > > > >>> > outside, when in fact they only deal with what has impinged
> >> and
> >> > > > >>> > networked in the world-view they have soaked up.
>
> >> > > > >>> > There's a classic example of this about at the moment.  It's
> >> debt and
> >> > > > >>> > the way we construe the term in the way we think about
> >> household debt
> >> > > > >>> > as the same as this economic-bankster stuff.  Normal dialogue
> >> is
> >> > > > >>> > impossible because most people can't understand the language
> >> because
> >> > > > >>> > they have never invested the effort to get beyond an
> >> imprinted self.
>
> >> > > > >>> > Much has been written on this, usually under the guise of
> >> paradigms -
> >> > > > >>> > with the idea that we can learn different ones in external
> >> language.
> >> > > > >>> > This seems a non-starter for me, as at least 85% of
> >> "language" is
> >> > > > non-
> >> > > > >>> > verbal and huge amounts manipulative.  I would contend that
> >> > > > >>> > individualism is the curse of our times and exemplified by
> >> such
> >> > > > >>> > discussions as whether bankers and sports stars are worth
> >> their
> >> > > > riches
> >> > > > >>> > - always discussed in the paradigm of an individual
>
> ...
>
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