Re: Mind's Eye New Google Groups is Dumb,but this not the subject

I think you will appreciate this one Malcolm (among others), from an
engineering standpoint nature has an amazing potential processing
capacity. The bandwidth, symbol diversity, depth of recursion, expansion
and contraction of emergent phenomena, stochastic boundary interference.
Who am I to say what /is/, what /could be/ is beyond words if creatures
as limited as we on an astronomical scale can see so much and reach out
so far in such a short time. Toward what, I think, we cannot imagine
it's significance (yet). The internet may evolve into a global central
nervous system given time, we may even learn a thing or two from
mathematics and what it means /that/ we do it. There is so much work to
be done on this little anthill!!

"Whereas an engineered control system has a reference value or
setpoint adjusted by some external agency, the reference value for a
biological control system cannot be set in this way. The setpoint must
come from some internal process. If there is a way for behavior to
affect it, any perception may be brought to the state momentarily
specified by higher levels and then be maintained in that state against
unpredictable disturbances. In a hierarchy of control systems, higher
levels adjust the goals of lower levels as their means of approaching
their own goals set by still-higher systems. This has important
consequences for any proposed external control of an autonomous living
control system (organism). At the highest level, reference values
(goals) are set by heredity or adaptive processes." [1] wikipedia

There is a site with resources and neat little intro/walkthrough at
http://www.pctweb.org/whatis/whatispct.html

And another puzzle piece I find interesting is in complex systems:

"Complex adaptive systems are special cases of complex systems. They are
complex in that they are dynamic networks of interactions and
relationships not aggregations of static entities. They are adaptive in
that their individual and collective behaviour changes as a result of
experience."

"The term complex adaptive systems, or complexity science, is often used
to describe the loosely organized academic field that has grown up
around the study of such systems. Complexity science is not a single
theory— it encompasses more than one theoretical framework and is highly
interdisciplinary, seeking the answers to some fundamental questions
about living, adaptable, changeable systems."
...
"Examples of complex adaptive systems include the stock market, social
insect and ant colonies, the biosphere and the ecosystem, the brain and
the immune system, the cell and the developing embryo, manufacturing
businesses and any human social group-based endeavour in a cultural and
social system such as political parties or communities. There are close
relationships between the field of CAS and artificial life. In both
areas the principles of emergence and self-organization are very
important." [3]

But the point I find interesting is that stimulus-response behaviorism
is an obsolete theory, however I acknowledge it can be very useful (such
as boolean logic and symbols in industrial controls or numerous others
involving abstraction, control, reliability, communication). Somewhere
in here morality, ethics, societal development, nature, biology,
chemistry, physics, and many more are implied.

I think this applies to several of the recent topics here but I seem to
be drawn into obscure, subjective or intense language, wonder what that
means (anyone, feel free to enlighten).. It is very difficult to
translate mental imagery into words, one seems to dissolve the other,
either the picture or the words..

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perceptual_control_theory
[2] http://www.pctweb.org/whatis/whatispct.html
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_adaptive_system


On 6/25/2012 3:05 AM, malcymo wrote:
> Thanks for the heartmath reterence. I had a brief look and it reminded
> me of Yoga techniques which I found extremely useful as a screwed up
> teenager.
> On Monday, 25 June 2012 07:25:42 UTC+12, Molly wrote:
>
> The heart also responds to all the things you mention. Our physical
> organs and systems all respond to thoughts, feelings and awareness.
> The heartmath institute has done quite a bit of research in this
> regard. Our being (includes physical and all aspects) and experience
> are in dynamic relationship. The become one in paradox.
>
> On Jun 24, 11:22 am, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > It is the brain which is essential for experiencing all feelings ,
> > thoughts , and states of awareness. Whatever is experienced has
> > physical basis because without the physical organs, whether it be
> > brain or sense organs , no experience is possible. God abides in
> > matter and guides it by well established laws.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 5:28 AM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > brain worship is prevalent, but science can't measure mind, or the
> > > effect of thought on experience. Science can measure brain
> function
> > > as neuro-physical biochemisty, but not the complexity of
> thought and
> > > what it means to overall health. There is a state in sleep and
> > > waking, where thought is not required, and indeed, awareness is
> > > enhanced because of it.
> >
> > > On Jun 23, 2:35 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> Man is a physical creature , the only spiritual aspect in him is
> > >> awareness. It is the mind which thinks and mind is physical ,
> cut a
> > >> portion of the brain and thinking will stop , cut another
> portion and
> > >> awareness will be reduced to such a level as to be
> insignificant ,
> > >> and if you kill the brain even awareness which is the spiritual
> > >> aspect in life will be extinguished. The fact is that Spirit
> pervades
> > >> throughout matter and an individuality might cease to be , yet
> the One
> > >> Spirit which is eternal and immortal remains unchanged.
> >
> > >> On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 10:27 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >> > Mind is a non physical organ, like ego or our metaphorical
> heart (the
> > >> > one what contains our emotions.) It's kind of like asking if
> people
> > >> > in different climates have different gall bladders because
> of the
> > >> > climate. At some point in our development, because the human
> being is
> > >> > adaptive and resilient, it is possible to find a harmonious
> life with
> > >> > all systems communicating and functioning together. We call
> this
> > >> > optimal health. And, at some point in our development, we may
> > >> > discover that the harmony of our being is more a reflection
> of our
> > >> > internal environment than external and that our lives are
> lived from
> > >> > inside out. Of course, not everyone comes to this
> realization, and
> > >> > continue throughout their lives to look for external causes
> for their
> > >> > problems or discomfort. Whatever our philosophy, the quality
> of our
> > >> > lives can dramatically change for the better is we look
> within for the
> > >> > answers. Our mind thinks. We can live and breathe without
> thinking.
> > >> > Yet thinking is an important aspect of life, and one that
> directly
> > >> > effects the quality of our lives.
> >
> > >> > On Jun 23, 12:06 pm, "pol.science kid"
> <r.freeb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >> I wanted to find out about this Chaz guy you were talking
> about... so
> > >> >> i was going through some really old posts.. but couldnt go
> really far
> > >> >> back.. only till 2007... when was ME created? who started
> it? When you
> > >> >> have a look..there are sooo many topics covered..its so
> exiting..
> > >> >> though i thought i saw some homophobic posts... but
> seriously.. the
> > >> >> range is so wide.. and there were so many members actively
> > >> >> engaging ... my own old posts seemed dumb to me.. i guess
> they still
> > >> >> are.. But its remarkable the range of this forum..im gla i
> joined it..
> > >> >> one can learn a lot.... also ..do you guys think..different
> climate
> > >> >> zones affect the nature of people?..i mean more than the
> fact that
> > >> >> environment affects culture which affects to some degree human
> > >> >> nature(or at least superficial responses.).. are people in
> temperate
> > >> >> areas different in their mind than people from tropical sultry
> > >> >> areas...
> >
> > >> >> On Jun 22, 5:02 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >> >> > I read Barbara Ward's "The Rich Nations and the Poor
> Nations" in the
> > >> >> > early '60's when my curiousity led me beyond liberal
> arts- also
> > >> >> > Carson's "The Silent Spring", and several books on WWII.
> 60 years
> > >> >> > later- and where are we?
> >
> > >> >> > On Jun 19, 8:44 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >> >> > > My point above, I think, is that what appears very
> complex may have
> > >> >> > > points of simplexity where we can see the moral action.
> >
> > >> >> > > On Jun 20, 2:41 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >> >> > > > I was attracted in to have a go at new google groups
> - utterly
> > >> >> > > > unspeakable. These moral issues form the core of my
> new book (80%
> > >> >> > > > done). Underlying the moral maze is the issue of
> frames of reference
> > >> >> > > > - most famously paradigms, though the Greeks knew.
> You can usually
> > >> >> > > > make several powerful arguments about anything. You
> can't really
> > >> >> > > > decide between the arguments because the root
> metaphors are different
> > >> >> > > > and incommensurable. The following were examples,
> exhausting if not
> > >> >> > > > exhaustive:
> >
> > >> >> > > > PARADIGM (disciplinary matrices) KUHN 1970; BURRELL &
> MORGAN 1979
> > >> >> > > > PICTURE THEORY OF MEANING WITTGENSTEIN1922
> > >> >> > > > LANGUAGE GAMES WITTGENSTEIN 1958
> > >> >> > > > MULTIPLE REALITIES JAMES1911
> > >> >> > > > ALTERNATE REALITIES CASTANEDA 1970; 1974
> > >> >> > > > LANGUAGE STRUCTURES WHORF 1956
> > >> >> > > > PROBLEMATICS ALTHUSSER 1969; BACHELARD 1949
> > >> >> > > > INTERNALLY CONFLICTING WORLD VIEWS PIRSIG 1976
> > >> >> > > > WORLD HYPOTHESES PEPPER 1942; 1966
> > >> >> > > > DREAM WORLDS (multiple frameworks) FEYERABEND 1975
> > >> >> > > > EVALUATING THE RATIONALITIES OF SOCIAL ACTION AND
> ACTION SYSTEMS
> > >> >> > > > (instrumental v life-world rationalities) HABERMAS 1984
> > >> >> > > > AN INSURRECTION OF LOCAL KNOWLEDGES IN A WEB OF POWER
> KNOWLEDGE
> > >> >> > > > FOUCAULT 1977; 1980
> > >> >> > > > MODAL LOGICS, RELATIVITIES LEWIS 1926; 1929; 1946:
> MOSER 1989
> > >> >> > > > SPECULATIVE PHILOSOPHY WHITEHEAD 1969
> > >> >> > > > METAPHOR MORGAN 1986
> > >> >> > > > TWO DIRECTIONAL TEXT AND RETRO-VISION BURRELL 1997
> >
> > >> >> > > > A classic example was held to be Newton's mechanics
> and Einstein's
> > >> >> > > > relativity and quantum theory. Very dense work by
> Snell and Ludvig
> > >> >> > > > disproves this IMHO. I take a similar view and
> believe the problem is
> > >> >> > > > we work in the ready-to-hand and don't get down deep
> enough to know
> > >> >> > > > what we are talking about. English Law does not allow
> the cabin boy
> > >> >> > > > to be eaten to survive when all else is lost - you
> have to give him
> > >> >> > > > the same shake of the dice everyone else gets.
> >
> > >> >> > > > Bankers and others are always telling us they are
> worth their massive
> > >> >> > > > thefts. There arguments relies on many frames of
> reference. In short
> > >> >> > > > argument, I merely note they are 'responsible' for
> profits and never
> > >> >> > > > losses. I believe it would be moral to work out what
> they have lost
> > >> >> > > > (some estimates at $39 trillion in the US) and take
> it off all bankers
> > >> >> > > > since 1970. Such clawback is in line with performance
> related pay
> > >> >> > > > they claim to believe in.
> >
> > >> >> > > > On Jun 20, 12:53 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >> >> > > > > I know I've been plenty tired lately - like
> Madeline Kahn in Blazing
> > >> >> > > > > Saddles: http://youtu.be/Uai7M4RpoLU
> >
> > >> >> > > > > On Jun 19, 6:35 pm, malcymo <malc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >> >> > > > > > Do you think tired?
> >
> > >> >> > > > > > I'm not so sure, certainly disinterested,
> apathetic and lazy minded; unless
> > >> >> > > > > > one is a fanatic.
> > >> >> > > > > > It would seem that the silent majority can put up
> with a great deal before
> > >> >> > > > > > they are spurred into action. It took attrocious
> Victorian exploitation to
> > >> >> > > > > > create the socialist movement.
> >
> > >> >> > > > > > Six days was an attempt at a bit of imaginative
> humour, really.
> >
> > >> >> > > > > > On Tuesday, June 19, 2012 10:54:12 PM UTC+12,
> rigsy03 wrote:
> > >> >> > > > > > > Why blame God? Seems to me the human race has
> been/is "tired".
> >
> > >> >> > > > > > > On Jun 19, 1:04 am, gabbydott
> <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >> > > > > > > > True, God must have been a bit tired when he
> came up with the
> > >> >> > > > > > > > learning-to-write trait. :)
> >
> > >> >> > > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 9:23 PM, malcymo
> <malc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > Yes Gabby,
> >
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > The human conditioning that lies with us on
> the blank table: our
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > evolutionary successful traits.Things that
> we can just do like learn
> > >> >> > > > > > > to
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > talk. Not the hard things like learn to write.
> >
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > On Monday, June 18, 2012 9:48:07 PM UTC+12,
> gabbydott wrote:
> >
> > >> >> > > > > > > > >> Yes, I think I know what you are aiming
> at. That's why I have been
> > >> >> > > > > > > saying
> > >> >> > > > > > > > >> time and time again that the blank table
> theory on which you put or
> > >> >> > > > > > > take
> > >> >> > > > > > > > >> away the food for development is an
> unuseful construct. Even if it
> > >> >> > > > > > > has
> > >> >> > > > > > > > >> four legs, it still doesn't walk, so to
> speak. What I'd like to raise
> > >> >> > > > > > > > >> awareness for is that human conditioning
> starts before the little
> > >> >> > > > > > > human
> > >> >> > > > > > > > >> lies on the table to be told and shown
> what is good and what is bad.
> > >> >> > > > > > > In
> > >> >> > > > > > > > >> that sense I'd agree that there is
> something "natural" in morality.
> >
> > >> >> > > > > > > > >> On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 4:00 PM,
> pol.science kid wrote:
> >
> > >> >> > > > > > > > >>> so when you say 'the human condition
> makes me human'... the fact of
> > >> >> > > > > > > > >>> being human makes me human.?... and the
> conditions that be inform
> > >> >> > > > > > > my
> > >> >> > > > > > > > >>> morality... now taking this and putting
> it on the dude from my
> >
> > ...
> >
> > read more »
>