Re: Mind's Eye self forgiveness

Subject: Memo to myself
Tag: Agency confusion

>Vam outed himself as the agent of the reeking, that's the chip he threw on the table. He lost it to Lady Rigs. Then he increased the stake in the next round by postulating, that it was the post on the table that had reeking qualities, as this was the only factual evidence we all had to agree upon. - No gambling for chips anymore.

>Molly has not worked out yet how to be the agent of the un4given and therefore does not lay out her cards.

>Allan is a serious gamer.

On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:37 AM, Allan H <allanh1946@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> We all have an interest in the chips piled on the table, if we didn't have this group for the most part would not exist.
>
> In reality it is fun examining the world today in context of our own morality, philosophy then expressing them instead of just mumbling them to ourselves .
> Allan
>
> On Jul 27, 2012 2:48 AM, "Vam" <atewari2007@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> It's cool, Gabby ! I discarded the Buddha or ZenMaster model for myself long back.
>>
>> Rigs, the term reek was for the post, not the person, if you overlooked.
>>
>> Facts, in context, are sub-events summed up over time to yield a fairly complete view of the event or trend that is thence indisputable. Mostly they also yield clues to the causal forces at work.
>>
>> I see no reason why I should see the politician in the lowest denomination, and accept their dishonest ways as the new " normal." Bill Moyers is right in pointing out their collusion with corporates, hereditary oligarchs and media, as the elite clique that set up their regime over a country and population, looped in for and amongst themselves, democracy or not. That clever remnant from millennium past, from that nature by which might is right, continues with accentuating iniquity and injustice which the law courts can never deal with. It's very much in my eye, without raising any ideology or -ism whatsoever. I am happy working at means to lend that awareness amongst those I connect with.
>>
>> As to my own nature, occasionally hot or brusque, is dedicated to the world around and situations I am in. It works for me because I have no interest in the chips pile on the table !
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, July 26, 2012 10:02:10 PM UTC+5:30, gabbydott wrote:
>>>
>>> Don't trace him back to his Shere Khan nature, when he defines the facts for us, Rigsy! ;) < joke, Vam, this is meant to be classified as humour!
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 3:36 PM, rigsy03 <rigsy03@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The raccoons would enjoy this salmon also- should I dump it in the
>>>> nearby creek? Actually, I am giving at least half of this away to
>>>> family friends.
>>>>
>>>> What do facts permit? One might want to define the "cynic" as a
>>>> disappointed idealist but I think an idealist should seek reality and
>>>> not some rosy-colored view. Philosophers, scientists and serious
>>>> authors and artist are often spurred by skepticism, aren't they? As
>>>> for politicians, what are they after- be honest. And as for the
>>>> theologians, paradise remains unproved.
>>>>
>>>> It is not the mark of a gentleman to accuse a female of reeking, by
>>>> the way.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 25, 4:23 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > Your post reeked of cynicism, to me. The flow > here, now is this > but
>>>> > it's always been > so, oh hell ... let me say something else.
>>>> >
>>>> > The facts hardly permit any confusion or doubt, or despair in matters like
>>>> > these. Just like environment. Or, clear evidence of depletion of ice cover
>>>> > in Greenland.
>>>> >
>>>> > There was a time salmons outnumbered our need. Then, it depleted, both by
>>>> > degraded environment and mindless poaching. Now, it's becoming scarce. It
>>>> > needs protection, sanctuaries and controlled harvesting. There is no doubt
>>>> > that if not done today, they'll get as rare as the whales and the dolphins.
>>>> >
>>>> > But did the Japanese heed ? Will the Republicans, now preparing to block
>>>> > loans for renewal energy infrastructure ? We all know what is the right
>>>> > thing to do. And we all should be pressing hard on doing, saying and
>>>> > contemplating to the best we can. The cynicism is misplaced, no matter how
>>>> > old we are.
>>>> >
>>>> > The bears have as much need and right to their morsels, perhaps more, than
>>>> > humans.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Wednesday, July 25, 2012 6:33:57 PM UTC+5:30, rigsy03 wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > > The salmon- wild Alaskan- have a fantastic life plan- truly beautiful.
>>>> > > Unlike humans or the various rationales devised in human eras/
>>>> > > societies, animals are really quite civilized. Hopefully the Pebbles
>>>> > > mine project (Frontline-PBS-7-24-12) will be rejected and denied a
>>>> > > permit so one of the last pure salmon runs can continue- but money/
>>>> > > greed/power has already proved itself throughout history. Why
>>>> > > generation after generation believes these "rationales" is beyond me-
>>>> > > what's worse, no one escapes contributing to the fraud of it all.
>>>> > > Anyway, have also seen the ragged end of the salmon's journey= bear
>>>> > > food. You have to net them before they enter the rivers- at their
>>>> > > peak.
>>>> >
>>>> > > On Jul 24, 5:31 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > > > The Serenity Prayer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_Prayer)
>>>> > > comes to
>>>> > > > mind at this stage. This would also fit better our pink bubble warrior
>>>> > > > Molly, who needs to give advice to her friend. - Let's not forget the
>>>> > > > purpose of this thread, or, as Rigsy reminds us, the path salmons take
>>>> > > or
>>>> > > > not take.
>>>> >
>>>> > > > On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 9:44 AM, James <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > > > > I was just reading the news, a rare occurrence, another reminder why..
>>>> > > > > Somewhere under contempt, anger, and shame is will, a couple leaps
>>>> > > further
>>>> > > > > to hope, pride gets a bad treatment in the process but is replaced
>>>> > > with
>>>> > > > > resolve. One matter stands out though. That is the role of acceptance
>>>> > > and
>>>> > > > > how it can develop into affirmations, I think that comes into the
>>>> > > resolve
>>>> > > > > stage.
>>>> >
>>>> > > > > Just a few of my reflections, I am certainly open to input.
>>>> >
>>>> > > > > On 7/21/2012 10:21 PM, James wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > > > >> And predators of every sort, it is hard to resist the urge to stand
>>>> > > in
>>>> > > > >> front like a wolverine at times. Some things turn the stomach, white
>>>> > > > >> heat is one, but it pays to understand the flame.
>>>> >
>>>> > > > >> On 7/20/2012 2:22 AM, Allan H wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > > > >>> Personally I do take my personal responsibility very seriously,, but
>>>> > > I
>>>> > > > >>> am not preoccupied or at least I hope.. I do think there is a
>>>> > > certain
>>>> > > > >>> responsibility one has to keep vigilance and pull the fire alarm
>>>> > > when
>>>> > > > >>> there is a 'fire' unfortunately there are a lot of fires..
>>>> > > > >>> Allan
>>>> >
>>>> > > > >>> On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 6:30 AM, James <ashkas...@gmail.com
>>>> > > > >>> <mailto:ashkas...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > > > >>> Not sure if they would like the term "preoccupation" with the
>>>> > > > >>> connotation of cultural values laden judgment but it sounds fair.
>>>> > > > >>> Mostly his perspective sounds reasonable given circumstances and I
>>>> > > > >>> can relate to a bit of it, but "morbid" seemed the best way to
>>>> > > > >>> describe the challenges. For one this person takes personal
>>>> > > > >>> responsibility very seriously but gives no sign of it because it is
>>>> > > > >>> a "vulnerability" people will take advantage of, he seems to have an
>>>> > > > >>> automatic fear response to happiness (seems like hypervigilance but
>>>> > > > >>> might be pathological fear), is very opposed personally to
>>>> > > > >>> spontaneous or excited behaviors but sees it as self discipline and
>>>> > > > >>> carefully manages what thoughts or emotions are shown. Much of this
>>>> > > > >>> sounds like he took life's lessons a little too seriously from a
>>>> > > > >>> young age, but that is where identity comes into play. The
>>>> > > > >>> existential definition that I think results by one's experience with
>>>> > > > >>> the world, and how that shapes subconscious behaviors, not known but
>>>> > > > >>> responded to automatically. I think that is where much of the
>>>> > > > >>> difficulty comes from in his case, the nature of his existence
>>>> > > > >>> defined by the world, and the resistant morbid part is the response
>>>> > > > >>> to those pressures. Where the world judged him harshly for being
>>>> > > > >>> different he learned most couldn't find waldo on a plain sheet of
>>>> > > > >>> paper. After listing a number of things that are different he had a
>>>> > > > >>> smile and pointed out that his challenges are not so different from
>>>> > > > >>> that of many others except the circumstances (existential definition
>>>> > > > >>> I take it) in sum were not typical enough for conventional answers,
>>>> > > > >>> they all lead back to square one.
>>>> >
>>>> > > > >>> It was strange to hear strong emotions from such a disciplined
>>>> > > > >>> person but I found it somewhat relieving, he still doesn't fit the
>>>> > > > >>> mold on offer, it is inspiring. So I'm not sure what kind of advice
>>>> > > > >>> to give or ask about, perhaps there is more perspective out there
>>>> > > > >>> somewhere?
>>>> >
>>>> > > > >>> On 7/19/2012 6:35 PM, rigsy03 wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > > > >>> I had another thought on self-forgiveness/morbid preoccupation: One
>>>> > > > >>> may have lost all perspective and forgotten the suffering in this
>>>> > > > >>> world and neglected to count the blessings. Then it also depends on
>>>> > > > >>> one's culture which might inflict a very distorted view of
>>>> > > > >>> anything it
>>>> > > > >>> choses so the individual doesn't know any better. Families can
>>>> > > > >>> also be
>>>> > > > >>> so dysfunctional that normal doesn't exist or develop properly.
>>>> >
>>>> > > > >>> Not sure the doctors are making profits as much as insurance and
>>>> > > > >>> drug
>>>> > > > >>> companies, shrinks and "counsellors". Then, the attorneys!
>>>> >
>>>> > > > >>> On Jul 19, 11:44 am, Allan H<allanh1...@gmail.com
>>>> > > > >>> <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > > > >>> Morbid would be an excessive preoccupation with and event or
>>>> > > > >>> sin.. Finally
>>>> > > > >>> started to figure it out..
>>>> >
>>>> > > > >>> Yes I know of the excessive cost of people taking advantage
>>>> > > > >>> of a program
>>>> > > > >>> that can be for free. When I came into AA the rich mans
>>>> > > > >>> programs were just
>>>> > > > >>> starting.. I was to poor so they didn't want anything to do
>>>> > > > >>> with me.. so I
>>>> > > > >>> became sober the old fashion way, not drinking and going to
>>>> > > > >>> meetings.. it
>>>> > > > >>> will still work today but that is to cheap for the greedy
>>>> > > > >>> medical
>>>> > > > >>> community.
>>>> > > > >>> Allan
>>>> >
>>>> > > > >>> On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 3:38 PM, rigsy03<rigs...@yahoo.com
>>>> > > > >>> <mailto:rigs...@yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > > > >>> Jumping in here- my idea of "morbid guilt" would be that
>>>> > > > >>> which
>>>> > > > >>> paralyzes development past a trauma. It is different
>>>> > > > >>> than the tumbling/
>>>> > > > >>> domino reaction that a traumatic event sparks- more like
>>>> > > > >>> physics or
>>>> > > > >>> chemical reaction, in a way. But...what is identity?
>>>> >
>>>> > > > >>> I don't find you "simple", Allan. Why do you disparage
>>>> > > > >>> yourself? Thank
>>>> > > > >>> you for being "here" so loyally- whatever "here" means! :-)
>>>> >
>>>> > > > >>> Back to your comment about AA- essentially a seflish
>>>> > > > >>> program of
>>>> > > > >>> necessity. Older alcoholics who had money would go to
>>>> > > > >>> spas and
>>>> > > > >>> steambath their way to sobriety- until the next bout. I
>>>> > > > >>> never even
>>>> > > > >>> heard of AA until I was in my 30's- at that point I
>>>> > > > >>> joined an Alanon
>>>> > > > >>> group at a nearby church but think the divorce rate
>>>> > > > >>> pretty high from
>>>> > > > >>> that group- it probably was part of the motive of
>>>> > > > >>> joining up- keeping
>>>> > > > >>> score, so to speak, rather than understanding the
>>>> > > > >>> spiritual element.
>>>> > > > >>> At the same time, treatment centers started springing
>>>> > > > >>> up- last I
>>>> > > > >>> heard, getting sober might cost 5 figures a month. There
>>>> > > > >>> is another
>>>> > > > >>> element now of drug addicts going to AA rather than
>>>> > > > >>> narco-something
>>>> > > > >>> which introduces a whole new can of worms. Anyway, I
>>>> > > > >>> think drinking
>>>> > > > >>> alone is what got me in trouble when all the children
>>>> > > > >>> had "graduated"
>>>> > > > >>> the nest- but I was ripe, anyway. lol I really don't
>>>> > > > >>> miss drinking but
>>>> > > > >>> have thought if I got a fatal diagnosis in the future, I
>>>> > > > >>> might need a
>>>> > > > >>> few shots of single malt whiskey to ease the way to
>>>> > > > >>> eternity.
>>>> >
>>>> > > > >>> On Jul 19, 2:48 am, Allan H<allanh1...@gmail.com
>>>> > > > >>> <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > > > >>> I know I am simple James, but what do you mean by
>>>> > > > >>> morbid guilt?
>>>> > > > >>> Allan
>>>> >
>>>> > > > >>> On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 5:59 AM,
>>>> > > > >>> James<ashkas...@gmail.com
>>>> > > > >>> <mailto:ashkas...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > > > >>> On 7/17/2012 6:50 AM, Molly wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > > > >>> I have a friend who is contemplating self
>>>> > > > >>> forgiveness. Any
>>>> >
>>>> > > > >>> suggestions?
>>>> >
>>>> > > > >>> Look back from a context of greater maturity, in
>>>> > > > >>> the meantime apply
>>>> >
>>>> > > > >>> time
>>>> >
>>>> > > > >>> and experience: pursue excellence, appreciate
>>>> > > > >>> moderation, respect
>>>> >
>>>> > > > >>> processes.
>>>> >
>>>> > > > >>> Through personal growth pieces of the story
>>>> > > > >>> begin falling in place,
>>>> > > > >>> motives are replaced with expanded and stronger
>>>> > > > >>> ones.
>>>> >
>>>> > > > >>> Morbid guilt might be another matter, where it
>>>> > > > >>> mixes with identity
>>>> >
>>>> > ...
>>>> >
>>>> > read more »- Hide quoted text -
>>>> >
>>>> > - Show quoted text -
>>>
>>>