On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Allan H <allanh1946@gmail.com> wrote:
I do not think that filling biological needs really lie in the classification of free choice. The argument is nothing more than a distraction from the topic. I know that is your basis for claiming that you do not have free choice..AllanOn Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 2:07 PM, Lee Douglas <leerevdouglas@gmail.com> wrote:
Indeed! Or I am thirsty and choose to get a drink later, or it is time for lunch but I choose to finish composing this one email before I choose to go eat.
On Tuesday, 14 August 2012 12:48:05 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:--I feel thirsty and go and take a glass of water , it is time for lunch
and I go and have it --- this is freedom of choice ,consciously
knowing and acting out the act.
On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 5:02 PM, Lee Douglas <leerev...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You speak as if we had no choice, and that we simply obey the programing of
> our bodies.
>
> I do get what you mean, I disagree, I think you wrong.
>
> We are again just going around in circles you and I RP, we must endevour to
> brake it.
>
> So in an attempt at just that let me try it this way.
>
> Let us stick to the machine analogy.
>
> If we humans are simply biological machines, what machine are we akin to?
>
> Clockwork?
>
> With a clock work device you have not many veriables, and things must be
> wound up in order for the machin to work, a period of winding, working and
> winding again must occour for the mahcine to work.
> So unlike a clockwork machine then.
>
> Electirical.
> In an electrical machine you need power source, and input settings for an
> external force to imput commands, or changes.
> So not unlike but not too similar to electric machines then.
>
> Compturised machines.
> The heart and soul of the computerised machine is the cpu, the memory and
> the programing.
> So maybe we are more akin to the computerised machine that the other two?
>
> Or may be a little of each?
>
> We can say that the human machine is a self diagnosing, self reparing
> machine. But all of this is down to the programing. We have some at birth,
> let us call this predisposition, but the majority of it is picked up as we
> grow in a particular enviroment, but the more complex the machine the more
> complex the programing needs to be. As we are constantly adding to our
> programing via external enviromental influences, there needs be a way to
> sort the dross from the gold. Indeed there is, our programing over the eons
> has developed a 'conciousness'. This conciousness is what we use to sotrt
> and refine our programing, and conciouness being what it is, is capable
> deciding from distinct and differant possibilites, this ability then is
> freedom of choice. Our conciouness uses many tools in which to do this,
> morality and will amongst them, and of course it also takes note of any
> predispositions.
>
> We may be machines but we are conciouse, and it is this in which we find our
> Self's burried.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, 14 August 2012 11:46:19 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>>
>> What you think and do is you as a organism that is responsible , but
>> you the organism are made of matter and it is from matter that all
>> enterprise arise , as such all your actions arise from the working of
>> your body and brain which also reacts to the outside environment.
>> Through CBT it is the organism which is repairing itself and you are
>> the puppet in the hands of this material body. You are the Front but
>> are made to feel that you are all in all.
>> Thoughts and actions arise from bio-chemical activity and the self is
>> under the impression that he is free.
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Lee Douglas <leerev...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Okay there are two points on this.
>> >
>> > Yes of course genetic predisposition exists, but you make a mistake when
>> > you
>> > claim the strengh of it. It could be that a man is predisposed to
>> > cancer.
>> > What this means is it is more likely that as he gets older his chance of
>> > some cells becomeing cancerous is higher then the man who has no genetic
>> > predisposition towards cancer; what it is not, is a 100% garentee.
>> >
>> > In a similar vein it may be that I am predisposed towards my choice in
>> > child
>> > rearing, but this is not a garentee that I will never smack my child.
>> > Genetic predisposition, not genetic garentee.
>> >
>> > Secondly.
>> >
>> > Yes all thought arises as a concequences of the mechanics of the brain,
>> > how
>> > can it be otherwise. Yet what CBT does and meditaion and a hell of a
>> > lot of
>> > mind exsercises is to elicit a physical change within the brain to
>> > complete
>> > a physcolgical change. You have a circular effect happing. Thought is
>> > made
>> > by the mechanics of the brain, we know that damage to the brain causes
>> > changes to the pyscology of the human. Yet the tought 'I wish to
>> > change'
>> > can make a physical change to the brain. Change to will in accordance
>> > with
>> > will.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Monday, 13 August 2012 17:12:33 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Whatever we think and whatever we do arises as a consequence of neural
>> >> activity which precede the thought processes or rather the thought
>> >> processes are a projection of this activity. When we are offered
>> >> psycho-therapy our brain reacts to it first and the thought process is
>> >> just the consequence , the efforts we make are a result of brain
>> >> activity which precede them. What are we without our genes ? just
>> >> nothing! What are we without the universe ? again nothing !
>> >> Predisposition is just that, an inclination, without which there is no
>> >> beginning. You have to start from somewhere and you don't do that from
>> >> scratch , you have your predisposition.
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 9:12 PM, Lee Douglas <leerev...@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Sorry RP, I have to call bullshit on this as you know I would.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > You talk about genetic predisposition and envirmental learning as if
>> >> > these
>> >> > are rock solid. Let us for just a second remember the power of words
>> >> > and
>> >> > say that a predispostion is exaclty that, not a hard solid rule and
>> >> > learnt
>> >> > behavour can of course be unlearnt.
>> >> >
>> >> > When a man goes to a mind doctor for reasons of what ever meantl
>> >> > health
>> >> > problems plauge him, he may be offerd CBT as an aid to getting his
>> >> > head
>> >> > back
>> >> > in order. How is it that these technichs work if we are really all
>> >> > fully
>> >> > bound and fetterd by our genes and our enviroment?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Monday, 13 August 2012 11:54:12 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What I would do is limited to my nature and as Lee and I are made up
>> >> >> differently his choice would be different , but that would be in
>> >> >> line
>> >> >> with the choice towards which he is genetically predisposed or
>> >> >> environmentally learned. What I mean is that will is a consequence
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> thought processes which end up in making a choice.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 3:22 PM, AmandaRheen <Machiav...@gmail.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> > What I understand you to be saying is merely that free will is
>> >> >> > limited
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > the number of possible choices that are available to the organism
>> >> >> > within
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > total capacities of the material matter of the organism. The part
>> >> >> > where
>> >> >> > you
>> >> >> > stop making sense to me is
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > " If you think that is freedom , then you are really the
>> >> >> > master of yourself. " in context of the example you used with Lee.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > That is "where I would have
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > beaten up a child mercilessly you would not have because you are
>> >> >> > not
>> >> >> > free , if you think you are go ahead and shoot up your enemy , but
>> >> >> > of
>> >> >> > course you would not because your reason would stop you where mine
>> >> >> > would not."
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > What does 'if you think that is freedom, the you are really the
>> >> >> > master
>> >> >> > of
>> >> >> > yourself' mean?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On Thursday, July 12, 2012 10:53:49 PM UTC+10, RP Singh wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> The will to change yourself comes from within you , but those who
>> >> >> >> are
>> >> >> >> ignorant of the intricacies of nature think that they have
>> >> >> >> brought
>> >> >> >> about this change. When you breathe you think that you are
>> >> >> >> freely
>> >> >> >> doing so but the fact is that it is your body which is demanding
>> >> >> >> it.
>> >> >> >> Whether you are controlling your anger or not is in your hands
>> >> >> >> but
>> >> >> >> your decisions arise from the working of your brain which is
>> >> >> >> matter
>> >> >> >> and as such governed by neurological or biological principles. If
>> >> >> >> freedom was real the whole machinery of the universe would have
>> >> >> >> collapsed and there would have been mayhem everywhere , but that
>> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> not the case and wherever you look you find harmony within.
>> >> >> >> Whatever
>> >> >> >> a
>> >> >> >> man does it is his nature expressing itself , where I would have
>> >> >> >> beaten up a child mercilessly you would not have because you are
>> >> >> >> not
>> >> >> >> free , if you think you are go ahead and shoot up your enemy ,
>> >> >> >> but
>> >> >> >> of
>> >> >> >> course you would not because your reason would stop you where
>> >> >> >> mine
>> >> >> >> would not. If you think that is freedom , then you are really the
>> >> >> >> master of yourself.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> > --
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
> --
>
>
>
--
()|_D AllanLife is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
(
)
|_D Allan
Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
--
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