Re: Mind's Eye Re: Matter

Thank you, Lee. Yes, I guess Rigs meant something like that.

And thanks Andrew, intuition is a word I can live much better with in
this our context.

On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 3:32 PM, Lee Douglas <leerevdouglas@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey Gabs.
>
> I think that when you are presented with, or stumble across an idea that you
> have not considered before, can it not be said that you have learned of a
> new idea?
>
> On Friday, 17 August 2012 10:37:38 UTC+1, gabbydott wrote:
>>
>> Maybe I misunderstood, but how can you learn new ideas? You can be
>> taught to follow new ideologies, you can come up with new ideas, you
>> can appreciate someone's new idea and further develop it, but how do
>> you learn new ideas? And what is an instinct if it can be overridden
>> by intellect? Do we not learn to control our impulses? Please, help
>> me.
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 3:48 AM, rigsy03 <rig...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > That's risk and growth, isn't it? But why would you open your heart to
>> > someone you didn't like? New ideas sometimes have to be learned. Not
>> > sure about the last one because there could be a very good reason your
>> > intellect cautions your instincts.
>> >
>> > On Aug 16, 2:41 pm, andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> That might be right for opening your hand. What about opening up your
>> >> heart
>> >> to someone you don`t particularly like, or opening your head to some
>> >> thought you don`t like or to new ideas that are strange to you you
>> >> don`t ?
>> >> Or listening to your instincts and acting on them despite your
>> >> intellect
>> >> telling you not to.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thursday, August 16, 2012 5:33:37 PM UTC+2, RP Singh wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > All conscious thought processes and deliberations are the
>> >> > manifestation of chemical activity in the physical brain , it is the
>> >> > neural activity in the brain which appear as the will with its
>> >> > consequent deliberations. I deliberate whether to open my hand or not
>> >> > and ultimately choose the one , but all this process is preceded by
>> >> > neural activity and the conscious deliberations and act are just the
>> >> > manifestation of this. So ultimately I am bound by myself according
>> >> > to
>> >> > my nature.
>> >>
>> >> > On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 7:07 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com
>> >> > <javascript:>>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> > > I am feeling thirsty and I can choose to quench my thirst or delay
>> >> > > it
>> >> > > for some time , but why do I choose one and not the other
>> >> > > ---simple, I
>> >> > > have to follow God's will as if it was my choice i.e. free choice.
>> >>
>> >> > > On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 5:37 PM, Lee Douglas
>> >> > > <leerev...@gmail.com<javascript:>>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> > >> Indeed! Or I am thirsty and choose to get a drink later, or it is
>> >> > >> time
>> >> > for
>> >> > >> lunch but I choose to finish composing this one email before I
>> >> > >> choose
>> >> > to go
>> >> > >> eat.
>> >>
>> >> > >> On Tuesday, 14 August 2012 12:48:05 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > >>> I feel thirsty and go and take a glass of water , it is time for
>> >> > >>> lunch
>> >> > >>> and I go and have it --- this is freedom of choice ,consciously
>> >> > >>> knowing and acting out the act.
>> >>
>> >> > >>> On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 5:02 PM, Lee Douglas
>> >> > >>> <leerev...@gmail.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> > >>> > You speak as if we had no choice, and that we simply obey the
>> >> > programing
>> >> > >>> > of
>> >> > >>> > our bodies.
>> >>
>> >> > >>> > I do get what you mean, I disagree, I think you wrong.
>> >>
>> >> > >>> > We are again just going around in circles you and I RP, we must
>> >> > endevour
>> >> > >>> > to
>> >> > >>> > brake it.
>> >>
>> >> > >>> > So in an attempt at just that let me try it this way.
>> >>
>> >> > >>> > Let us stick to the machine analogy.
>> >>
>> >> > >>> > If we humans are simply biological machines, what machine are
>> >> > >>> > we
>> >> > akin
>> >> > >>> > to?
>> >>
>> >> > >>> > Clockwork?
>> >>
>> >> > >>> > With a clock work device you have not many veriables, and
>> >> > >>> > things
>> >> > must be
>> >> > >>> > wound up in order for the machin to work, a period of winding,
>> >> > working
>> >> > >>> > and
>> >> > >>> > winding again must occour for the mahcine to work.
>> >> > >>> > So unlike a clockwork machine then.
>> >>
>> >> > >>> > Electirical.
>> >> > >>> > In an electrical machine you need power source, and input
>> >> > >>> > settings
>> >> > for
>> >> > >>> > an
>> >> > >>> > external force to imput commands, or changes.
>> >> > >>> > So not unlike but not too similar to electric machines then.
>> >>
>> >> > >>> > Compturised machines.
>> >> > >>> > The heart and soul of the computerised machine is the cpu, the
>> >> > memory
>> >> > >>> > and
>> >> > >>> > the programing.
>> >> > >>> > So maybe we are more akin to the computerised machine that the
>> >> > >>> > other
>> >> > >>> > two?
>> >>
>> >> > >>> > Or may be a little of each?
>> >>
>> >> > >>> > We can say that the human machine is a self diagnosing, self
>> >> > reparing
>> >> > >>> > machine. But all of this is down to the programing. We have
>> >> > >>> > some
>> >> > at
>> >> > >>> > birth,
>> >> > >>> > let us call this predisposition, but the majority of it is
>> >> > >>> > picked up
>> >> > as
>> >> > >>> > we
>> >> > >>> > grow in a particular enviroment, but the more complex the
>> >> > >>> > machine
>> >> > the
>> >> > >>> > more
>> >> > >>> > complex the programing needs to be. As we are constantly
>> >> > >>> > adding to
>> >> > our
>> >> > >>> > programing via external enviromental influences, there needs be
>> >> > >>> > a
>> >> > way to
>> >> > >>> > sort the dross from the gold. Indeed there is, our programing
>> >> > >>> > over
>> >> > the
>> >> > >>> > eons
>> >> > >>> > has developed a 'conciousness'. This conciousness is what we
>> >> > >>> > use to
>> >> > >>> > sotrt
>> >> > >>> > and refine our programing, and conciouness being what it is, is
>> >> > capable
>> >> > >>> > deciding from distinct and differant possibilites, this ability
>> >> > >>> > then
>> >> > is
>> >> > >>> > freedom of choice. Our conciouness uses many tools in which to
>> >> > >>> > do
>> >> > this,
>> >> > >>> > morality and will amongst them, and of course it also takes
>> >> > >>> > note of
>> >> > any
>> >> > >>> > predispositions.
>> >>
>> >> > >>> > We may be machines but we are conciouse, and it is this in
>> >> > >>> > which we
>> >> > find
>> >> > >>> > our
>> >> > >>> > Self's burried.
>> >>
>> >> > >>> > On Tuesday, 14 August 2012 11:46:19 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > >>> >> What you think and do is you as a organism that is responsible
>> >> > >>> >> ,
>> >> > but
>> >> > >>> >> you the organism are made of matter and it is from matter that
>> >> > >>> >> all
>> >> > >>> >> enterprise arise , as such all your actions arise from the
>> >> > >>> >> working
>> >> > of
>> >> > >>> >> your body and brain which also reacts to the outside
>> >> > >>> >> environment.
>> >> > >>> >> Through CBT it is the organism which is repairing itself and
>> >> > >>> >> you
>> >> > are
>> >> > >>> >> the puppet in the hands of this material body. You are the
>> >> > >>> >> Front
>> >> > but
>> >> > >>> >> are made to feel that you are all in all.
>> >> > >>> >> Thoughts and actions arise from bio-chemical activity and the
>> >> > >>> >> self
>> >> > is
>> >> > >>> >> under the impression that he is free.
>> >>
>> >> > >>> >> On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Lee Douglas
>> >> > >>> >> <leerev...@gmail.com>
>> >> > >>> >> wrote:
>> >> > >>> >> > Okay there are two points on this.
>> >>
>> >> > >>> >> > Yes of course genetic predisposition exists, but you make a
>> >> > mistake
>> >> > >>> >> > when
>> >> > >>> >> > you
>> >> > >>> >> > claim the strengh of it. It could be that a man is
>> >> > >>> >> > predisposed
>> >> > to
>> >> > >>> >> > cancer.
>> >> > >>> >> > What this means is it is more likely that as he gets older
>> >> > >>> >> > his
>> >> > chance
>> >> > >>> >> > of
>> >> > >>> >> > some cells becomeing cancerous is higher then the man who
>> >> > >>> >> > has no
>> >> > >>> >> > genetic
>> >> > >>> >> > predisposition towards cancer; what it is not, is a 100%
>> >> > garentee.
>> >>
>> >> > >>> >> > In a similar vein it may be that I am predisposed towards my
>> >> > choice
>> >> > >>> >> > in
>> >> > >>> >> > child
>> >> > >>> >> > rearing, but this is not a garentee that I will never smack
>> >> > >>> >> > my
>> >> > child.
>> >> > >>> >> > Genetic predisposition, not genetic garentee.
>> >>
>> >> > >>> >> > Secondly.
>> >>
>> >> > >>> >> > Yes all thought arises as a concequences of the mechanics of
>> >> > >>> >> > the
>> >> > >>> >> > brain,
>> >> > >>> >> > how
>> >> > >>> >> > can it be otherwise. Yet what CBT does and meditaion and a
>> >> > >>> >> > hell
>> >> > of a
>> >> > >>> >> > lot of
>> >> > >>> >> > mind exsercises is to elicit a physical change within the
>> >> > >>> >> > brain
>> >> > to
>> >> > >>> >> > complete
>> >> > >>> >> > a physcolgical change. You have a circular effect happing.
>> >> > Thought
>> >> > >>> >> > is
>> >> > >>> >> > made
>> >> > >>> >> > by the mechanics of the brain, we know that damage to the
>> >> > >>> >> > brain
>> >> > >>> >> > causes
>> >> > >>> >> > changes to the pyscology of the human. Yet the tought 'I
>> >> > >>> >> > wish to
>> >> > >>> >> > change'
>> >> > >>> >> > can make a physical change to the brain. Change to will in
>> >> > >>> >> > accordance
>> >> > >>> >> > with
>> >> > >>> >> > will.
>> >>
>> >> > >>> >> > On Monday, 13 August 2012 17:12:33 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > >>> >> >> Whatever we think and whatever we do arises as a
>> >> > >>> >> >> consequence of
>> >> > >>> >> >> neural
>> >> > >>> >> >> activity which precede the thought processes or rather the
>> >> > thought
>> >> > >>> >> >> processes are a projection of this activity. When we are
>> >> > >>> >> >> offered
>> >> > >>> >> >> psycho-therapy our brain reacts to it first and the thought
>> >> > process
>> >> > >>> >> >> is
>> >> > >>> >> >> just the consequence , the efforts we make are a result of
>> >> > >>> >> >> brain
>> >> > >>> >> >> activity which precede them. What are we without our
>> >> > >>> >> >> genes ?
>> >> > just
>> >> > >>> >> >> nothing! What are we without the universe ? again nothing
>> >> > >>> >> >> !
>> >> > >>> >> >> Predisposition is just that, an inclination, without which
>> >> > >>> >> >> there
>> >> > is
>> >> > >>> >> >> no
>> >> > >>> >> >> beginning. You have to start from somewhere and you don't
>> >> > >>> >> >> do
>> >> > that
>> >> > >>> >> >> from
>> >> > >>> >> >> scratch , you have your predisposition.
>> >>
>> >> > >>> >> >> On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 9:12 PM, Lee Douglas <
>> >> > leerev...@gmail.com>
>> >> > >>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> > >>> >> >> > Sorry RP, I have to call bullshit on this as you know I
>> >> > >>> >> >> > would.
>> >>
>> >> > >>> >> >> > You talk about genetic predisposition and envirmental
>> >> > >>> >> >> > learning
>> >> > as
>> >> > >>> >> >> > if
>> >> > >>> >> >> > these
>> >> > >>> >> >> > are rock solid. Let us for just a second remember the
>> >> > >>> >> >> > power
>> >> > of
>> >> > >>> >> >> > words
>> >> > >>> >> >> > and
>> >> > >>> >> >> > say that a predispostion is exaclty that, not a hard
>> >> > >>> >> >> > solid
>> >> > rule
>> >> > >>> >> >> > and
>> >> > >>> >> >> > learnt
>> >> > >>> >> >> > behavour can of course be unlearnt.
>> >>
>> >> > >>> >> >> > When a man goes to a mind doctor for reasons of what ever
>> >> > meantl
>> >> > >>> >> >> > health
>> >> > >>> >> >> > problems plauge him, he may be offerd CBT as an aid to
>> >> > >>> >> >> > getting
>> >> > his
>> >> > >>> >> >> > head
>> >> > >>> >> >> > back
>> >> > >>> >> >> > in order. How is it that these technichs work if we are
>> >> > really
>> >> > >>> >> >> > all
>> >> > >>> >> >> > fully
>> >> > >>> >> >> > bound and fetterd by our genes and our enviroment?
>> >>
>> >> > >>> >> >> > On Monday, 13 August 2012 11:54:12 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > >>> >> >> >> What I would do is limited to my nature and as Lee and I
>> >> > >>> >> >> >> are
>> >> > made
>> >> > >>> >> >> >> up
>> >> > >>> >> >> >> differently his choice would be different , but that
>> >> > >>> >> >> >> would
>> >> > be in
>> >> > >>> >> >> >> line
>> >> > >>> >> >> >> with the choice towards which he is genetically
>> >> > >>> >> >> >> predisposed
>> >> > or
>> >> > >>> >> >> >> environmentally learned. What I mean is that will is a
>> >> > >>> >> >> >> consequence
>> >> > >>> >> >> >> of
>> >> > >>> >> >> >> thought processes which end up in making a choice.
>> >>
>> >> > >>> >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 3:22 PM, AmandaRheen
>> >> > >>> >> >> >> <Machiav...@gmail.com>
>> >> > >>> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> > >>> >> >> >> > What I understand you to be saying is merely that free
>> >> > >>> >> >> >> > will
>> >> > is
>> >> > >>> >> >> >> > limited
>> >> > >>> >> >> >> > to
>> >> > >>> >> >> >> > the number of possible choices
>> >>
>> >> ...
>> >>
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>> >
>> >
>> >
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