Ohh no Andrew I'm not agreeing with that.
I was talking to my oldest son about freedom the other day, I asked him if he belivedthat wee are truely free. He said he does not belive so, he said that sociaty and culture and law have fetters around us and this means that we are not truely free at all but free to act with constaints.
I asked him to consider which force is it that could stop a man form uttering whichever words he wanted to which ever person he wanted, and also to consider which force would be reqiured for him to not be free to perform any actions he wanted.
He thought about this and said apart from myself, and maybey being phyiscaly over powerd then nothing, could really make me not say or do as I wished.
All laws, mores and social convention can be ignored, if you are fully propered to face the consequences of your words and deeds, you are truely free my friend, you only imagine that you are not, heheh and that is a massive illusion.
On Tuesday, 14 August 2012 11:50:07 UTC+1, andrew vecsey wrote:
In my humble opinion, the only free will we really have is the freedom to think and the freedom to want. Most of us but not all have the freedom to express our thoughts and wants. A very few have the freedom to act out our expressions.--
On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 12:44:36 PM UTC+2, andrew vecsey wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 12:28:52 PM UTC+2, Lee Douglas wrote:Okay there are two points on this.Yes of course genetic predisposition exists, but you make a mistake when you claim the strengh of it. It could be that a man is predisposed to cancer. What this means is it is more likely that as he gets older his chance of some cells becomeing cancerous is higher then the man who has no genetic predisposition towards cancer; what it is not, is a 100% garentee.In a similar vein it may be that I am predisposed towards my choice in child rearing, but this is not a garentee that I will never smack my child. Genetic predisposition, not genetic garentee.Secondly.Yes all thought arises as a concequences of the mechanics of the brain, how can it be otherwise. Yet what CBT does and meditaion and a hell of a lot of mind exsercises is to elicit a physical change within the brain to complete a physcolgical change. You have a circular effect happing. Thought is made by the mechanics of the brain, we know that damage to the brain causes changes to the pyscology of the human. Yet the tought 'I wish to change' can make a physical change to the brain. Change to will in accordance with will.
On Monday, 13 August 2012 17:12:33 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:Whatever we think and whatever we do arises as a consequence of neural
activity which precede the thought processes or rather the thought
processes are a projection of this activity. When we are offered
psycho-therapy our brain reacts to it first and the thought process is
just the consequence , the efforts we make are a result of brain
activity which precede them. What are we without our genes ? just
nothing! What are we without the universe ? again nothing !
Predisposition is just that, an inclination, without which there is no
beginning. You have to start from somewhere and you don't do that from
scratch , you have your predisposition.
On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 9:12 PM, Lee Douglas <leerev...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry RP, I have to call bullshit on this as you know I would.
>
>
> You talk about genetic predisposition and envirmental learning as if these
> are rock solid. Let us for just a second remember the power of words and
> say that a predispostion is exaclty that, not a hard solid rule and learnt
> behavour can of course be unlearnt.
>
> When a man goes to a mind doctor for reasons of what ever meantl health
> problems plauge him, he may be offerd CBT as an aid to getting his head back
> in order. How is it that these technichs work if we are really all fully
> bound and fetterd by our genes and our enviroment?
>
>
>
> On Monday, 13 August 2012 11:54:12 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>>
>> What I would do is limited to my nature and as Lee and I are made up
>> differently his choice would be different , but that would be in line
>> with the choice towards which he is genetically predisposed or
>> environmentally learned. What I mean is that will is a consequence of
>> thought processes which end up in making a choice.
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 3:22 PM, AmandaRheen <Machiav...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > What I understand you to be saying is merely that free will is limited
>> > to
>> > the number of possible choices that are available to the organism within
>> > the
>> > total capacities of the material matter of the organism. The part where
>> > you
>> > stop making sense to me is
>> >
>> > " If you think that is freedom , then you are really the
>> > master of yourself. " in context of the example you used with Lee.
>> >
>> > That is "where I would have
>> >
>> > beaten up a child mercilessly you would not have because you are not
>> > free , if you think you are go ahead and shoot up your enemy , but of
>> > course you would not because your reason would stop you where mine
>> > would not."
>> >
>> > What does 'if you think that is freedom, the you are really the master
>> > of
>> > yourself' mean?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thursday, July 12, 2012 10:53:49 PM UTC+10, RP Singh wrote:
>> >>
>> >> The will to change yourself comes from within you , but those who are
>> >> ignorant of the intricacies of nature think that they have brought
>> >> about this change. When you breathe you think that you are freely
>> >> doing so but the fact is that it is your body which is demanding it.
>> >> Whether you are controlling your anger or not is in your hands but
>> >> your decisions arise from the working of your brain which is matter
>> >> and as such governed by neurological or biological principles. If
>> >> freedom was real the whole machinery of the universe would have
>> >> collapsed and there would have been mayhem everywhere , but that is
>> >> not the case and wherever you look you find harmony within. Whatever a
>> >> man does it is his nature expressing itself , where I would have
>> >> beaten up a child mercilessly you would not have because you are not
>> >> free , if you think you are go ahead and shoot up your enemy , but of
>> >> course you would not because your reason would stop you where mine
>> >> would not. If you think that is freedom , then you are really the
>> >> master of yourself.
>> >>
>> >>
>> > --
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
> --
>
>
>
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