Re: Mind's Eye UFO's: Fact or Fantasy?

I am left outside science and religion on this Allan, perhaps we have
some of that in common. Sending complex biological organisms through
interstellar space doesn't sound efficient if there are any
alternatives. Going up the spectrum of biotech advancements at some
unknown point a species might be able to choose not just the
technological method but innovate the medium of transport itself.

Perhaps they would kindly drop me a mental note explaining why
determinism is accurate, except when it is not, and how that could make
any sense. Perhaps another medium is atemporal, but we are rooted here
and now. What part of us could possibly lie outside the massive barriers
of physics, I'm still looking for answers myself. What I see as plain
and common as gravity leads me right here feeling dumb as a box of rocks.

Purpose is a frightening notion.. I don't resent that some have found
answers so much as it seems people latch on answers for security, maybe
I'll demand my dog to tell me what 6*7 is tomorrow. ;-) Hope your
recovery is going well Allan, you are sounding better.

Yikes, belated welcome to the group Bill!

On 9/28/2012 10:27 PM, Allan H wrote:
> Why can not our or for that matter any other alien body else where be
> .nothing more than a vehicle for the soul?
> Allan
>
> On Sep 29, 2012 3:17 AM, "archytas" <nwterry@gmail.com
> <mailto:nwterry@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> It strikes me Bill that UFO stories and thinking about the future and
> better places (heaven etc) can be part of science. We have no answers
> to what we are doing here other than speculation. I tend to think the
> economic world is religiously organised as a control fraud - this
> aspect of religion bothers me a lot and the spiritual does not.
> Reporting in UFOs (and such matters as spontaneous human combustion)
> is so naff I can't get interested.
>
> We would generally wonder why we don't know human and cosmic purpose
> and consider this a disadvantage hard to imagine a benevolent creator
> giving us. The Spartans, at least in myth, sent their male kids out
> to cope in the wild. It would be good if mum and dad turned up in a
> space-ship with an explanation.
>
> On 28 Sep, 22:33, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com
> <mailto:nwte...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > We live on a hill between two rivers Allan. The town here
> floods, but
> > its such a dump now we don't go there. The weather in NW England is
> > pretty bad generally, but this has been a very bad summer as opposed
> > to standardly bad. I'm off to the dog track at Belle Vue on Saturday
> > night - just for a daft night out. I expect a few 'alien runners'
> > there!
> >
> > If there is intelligent life elsewhere I expect they won't be animal
> > like us. Evolution is red in tooth and claw in part, but also about
> > cooperation and Borg-like integration of species. Whilst I see mind
> > as a lot to do with brain processing, evidence mounts that this is
> > only part of the story - some ants that are enslaved now act in
> > rebellion against there masters with no 'hope' of improving their own
> > individual condition, presumably on behalf of the rest of their
> > species. I expect aliens to be able to be able to do the Borg thing
> > and make use of what is biologically and technically available to
> make
> > themselves and not be stuck with our lusts for reproduction. My
> guess
> > is such assimilation would not be to dominate or produce 'drones'.
> >
> > On he speed of light we know it depends on the medium it is
> travelling
> > in, slowing to about bicycle speed in a Bose-Einstein condensate,
> > almost stopping in such and emerging as a matter wave. If gravity
> > exists we don't know how fast it travels or how fast space expands.
> > The issue of quantum stuff like instantaneous knowing in wave
> equation
> > systems in which the bits 'know' each other remains.
> >
> > Other species are nw only with us in assimilation or history and our
> > fate may be little more. We are only special in made-up stories of
> > god, origin and heroes we know are trash. One of my questions about
> > robot heaven or advanced inter-galactic society is why anyone would
> > risk human beings spoiling it!
> >
> > On 28 Sep, 13:28, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com
> <mailto:rigs...@yahoo.com>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > What about the Elysian Fields for fallen heroes and the blessed-
> > > mentioned in the Odyssey and Aeneid? I worry about the
> non-heroes and
> > > esp. those who are massacred and dumped in a pit or potter's grave
> > > with no ceremony. But I do agree, we dabble in heaven and hell
> during
> > > our lifetimes. For instance, a bad marriage is compared to Hell-
> > > true! :-) A sensory delight of the flesh or palate is compared to
> > > Heaven. The afterlife was popular in early Christianity to give the
> > > poor hope but later you could buy your way into heaven with
> > > indulgences and the guilt remains, perhaps, with charities and
> > > volunteerism. I have a more practical view but let's face it-
> people
> > > want easy answers, easy fixes/exits.
> >
> > > On Sep 28, 12:17 am, William L Houts <luka...@gmail.com
> <mailto:luka...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > > > I wonder if humans do dream of uncorrupted worlds, in
> general. You'd
> > > > think that would be universal, and it does seem to be borne
> out by
> > > > Western mythologies, with some exceptions. For instance, the
> Greeks had
> > > > Olympus, but except for Heracles no one got to go there;
> everyone else
> > > > went to Hades, which was gloomy and boring if you were lucky
> enough to
> > > > land there in general population, and terrifying if the gods
> put you in
> > > > Tartarus. And the Romans didn't seem to place faith in any
> sort of
> > > > afterlife at all, which is one of the main reasons
> whyChristianity sold
> > > > like hotcakes. Eastern religions such as Buddhism had
> various hells and
> > > > heavens, but they were sort of besides the point: your karma
> is / was
> > > > supposed to boil down to nothing and liberate you from the
> Wheel of
> > > > Rebirth, which was supposed to put you in Nirvana, which was
> less a
> > > > Heaven than it was a Nowhere. And Taoism doesn't have much to
> say about
> > > > heavenly afterworlds; its whole point is to make this world
> more just
> > > > and balanced and leaves heavens to the individual to figure out.
> >
> > > > But as to your question of whether humans long for
> uncorrupted worlds, I
> > > > think that besides the Abrahamic religions noone takes them very
> > > > seriously. And I think they've got a point: I mean, if
> you're taking
> > > > your present existence at all seriously, then just what is an
> afterlife
> > > > supposed to be about? Are we supposed to be eating bonbons
> all day and
> > > > living in some version of American luxury? I'd like to
> believe in
> > > > Heaven --which for me looks like a kind of liberal college
> town, with
> > > > libraries and funky old cinema houses-- but all of that seems
> kind of
> > > > empty if there's no gravitas, no seriousness. Without
> death, without a
> > > > final marker which howls at us, Do what you must do NOW and
> die knowing
> > > > that you've used your life well--without that, I think heaven
> would
> > > > become kind of slouchy and boring, or worse. Unless, of
> course, what's
> > > > waiting for us on the other side is something superrational but
> > > > beautiful, like being absorbed into the godhead, if such
> there be.
> >
> > > > So in answer to your question, I think we do dream of
> uncorrupt worlds,
> > > > but if we examine them too closely, they tend to be bustable soap
> > > > bubbles. And maybe I lack imagination, but I wonder, how
> could it be any
> > > > other way? Frankly, I'd like to be told how. I sound
> sensible about all
> > > > of this if a little pessimistic, but in reality I'm a scared
> ex-Catholic
> > > > who is terrified of death and wants to solve the Big
> Question before
> > > > they're performing Last Rites on his sorry ass.
> >
> > > > --Bill
> >
> > > > On 9/27/2012 7:20 PM, rigsy03 wrote:
> >
> > > > > I wonder where you put the mythological and religious
> other-worldlies-
> > > > > from gods to guardian angels, etc.? Or the construct of Dante's
> > > > > "Divine Comedy", for instance. Do humans long for
> uncorrupted worlds?
> >
> > > > > On Sep 27, 6:23 pm, William L Houts <luka...@gmail.com
> <mailto:luka...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > > >> I'm with the pragmatists on the question of intelligent
> alien species.
> > > > >> Many scientists who speculate on this sort of thing
> --though there
> > > > >> really aren't that many of them-- say that such species
> wouldn't
> > > > >> resemble anything so comforting as a humanoid physiology,
> but I think
> > > > >> they're partly mistaken. Surely there would be surprises
> in the way
> > > > >> nature cooks up life on other planets with radically different
> > > > >> chemistries than our dear old Mama Earth. But I think
> there's reason to
> > > > >> suppose that many alien species would resemble us. After
> all, any
> > > > >> species we might imagine has to cope with gravity as it
> evolves. So
> > > > >> they're much more likely to evolve some form of locomotion
> which
> > > > >> involves two, four or six pedal extremities (as Fats
> Waller calls them)
> > > > >> rather than three or five: even-numbered legs are less
> wobbly and more
> > > > >> amenable to balanced movement which consumes fewer
> calories. . Also,
> > > > >> sense organs like eyes and ears are likely to be located
> in or close to
> > > > >> a head, as there is survival value in having sense organs
> located close
> > > > >> to a brain, or whatever such species might use for brains.
> Finally,
> > > > >> everyone in the cosmos requires energy to get going, so
> they're either
> > > > >> going to evolve photosynthesis and take their energy
> directly from their
> > > > >> sun or suns, or they're going to take their sunbeams
> indirectly by
> > > > >> consuming something lower in the food chain. I'm sure
> there are lots of
> > > > >> evolution pathways I'm leaving out, seeing as I'm a
> curious poet rather
> > > > >> than a serious scientist type of guy, but I think these
> notions are, as
> > > > >> Allan named other ideas of mine, sensible provisos.
> >
> > > > >> PS. I left out centipedes and millipedes with their
> scores of legs, but
> > > > >> I think y'all's get what I'm saying here.
> >
> > > > >> --Bill
> >
> > > > >> On 9/27/2012 3:57 PM, archytas wrote:
> >
> > > > >>> I haven't seen any UFOs and tend not to be much
> interested in people
> > > > >>> who claim to have - at least without Bill's sensible
> provisos. The
> > > > >>> speed of thought as a brain process is slower than
> light-speed - but
> > > > >>> then I'm basically a tropical fish realist. I'd have a
> bet that no
> > > > >>> one in this group would really have much of a definition
> of light-
> > > > >>> speed and the Ricel curvature tensor, Euler Langrangian
> and the rest
> > > > >>> of Einstein's field equations. I mean no offence and
> don't do much of
> > > > >>> this science myself.
> > > > >>> If you point out to a physicist that the people from the
> future who
> > > > >>> have invented the time machine are in extraordinarily
> short supply in
> > > > >>> our present he may come up with some mathematical guff on
> the shape of
> > > > >>> the universe that explains this or makes time travel only
> possible to
> > > > >>> the future. I have seen demons - plodding back to camp
> after a week's
> > > > >>> endurance exercise with no food for two days I was
> visually convinced
> > > > >>> the sentries were vampires but still asked them where the
> Naffi was.
> > > > >>> My guess is that we travel through space as primitive
> life-forms with
> > > > >>> evolution built-in and waiting to unfold. We may thus
> have come from
> > > > >>> a much more advanced civilisation than ours bound by the
> speed of
> > > > >>> light, capable of the biological engineering but not
> space-flight much
> > > > >>> more advanced than our own. Calculations give 28 years
> as the time to
> > > > >>> reach the edge of the known universe - but this is the
> time inside the
> > > > >>> ship accelerating to near light speed fairly slowly.
> Space is not
> > > > >>> friction free and it's doubtful we or our instruments
> could take the
> > > > >>> radiation of light-speed flight.
> > > > >>> I rather hope there are some nice, genuinely civilised
> aliens thinking
> > > > >>> of coming here. In my speculation, intelligent life
> tends to worry
> > > > >>> about food chains led by apes as these have been
> notoriously war-like.
> > > > >>> I'm into bees and ants rather than UFOs at the moment.
> Bees use
> > > > >>> 'pharma' to combat fungal infections. Ants take slaves -
> killing the
> > > > >>> adults of another species and
> >
> > ...
> >
> > read more »
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