Re: Mind's Eye Re: Life

For instance, THEY are learning how to splice the DNA from the eggs of
two different women to create an entirely new genetic history and
pattern.

On Oct 26, 8:31 am, Lee Douglas <leerevdoug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hahhah leave off Allan, I'm not insulted by RP nor do I hope he is by me.
>  Differences of opinion are just that, and as you know I enjoy a robust
> interaction.  RP has widely reported his conception of Soul and God and
> Gods message to us, it is one that I do not agree with, and this too is by
> now widely reported.
>
> RP.  I get ya.  I still disagree and I suspect that this one
> as other discussions with thee and me will have to end in the old agreeing
> to disagree.  Which is fine if a little sad.  I have been alluding today to
> our dearest Gabs on G+ that I enjoy my argumentative nature as it helps me
> clarify and investigate my own position, opinions and ideas, I hope that by
> now everybody here understands this about me, and see's no malice in it.
>
> Damn me though it is at times like this that I miss that reprobate Fiddler,
> he I think got this about me, although hah sometimes it sure felt that he
> forgot it in his outrage!
>
> As an aside though, I've been a member here what almost ten years I think,
> I've seen people come and go, as I have been constant and quiet over the
> years.  I love this place though, it is still the best forum on the net,
> and reading back through my own history I can see how it has helped me grow
> and indeed in some instances change my own stance altogether.  You see
> people can and do learn.  Life, it's a funny old game innit?
>
>
>
> On Thursday, 25 October 2012 20:34:13 UTC+1, Allan Heretic wrote:
>
> > behave your self Allan
>
> > On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 8:25 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com <javascript:>>
> > wrote:
> > > A better understanding of oneself and the world is a mark of
> > > intelligence and not consciousness. A human can be said to be more
> > > intelligent than the lessor life-forms as he has a better
> > > understanding of the self , his emotions and how to control them. To
> > > me there is no difference between the Self or the universal Soul or
> > > God.
>
> > > On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 10:43 PM, Lee Douglas <leerev...@gmail.com<javascript:>>
> > wrote:
> > >> Then we are indeed using different definitions of the word.  Yes there
> > is a
> > >> difference in intelligence between us and chimp, but also in
> > consciousness.
> > >> If I am conscious of a Self, that is apart and separate from others of
> > my
> > >> species, and a worm is not conscious of such a thing, is this a measure
> > of
> > >> consciousness  or intelligence   This is what I mean when I use the
> > word and
> > >> it is this I allude to when I say levels of consciousness.
>
> > >> As to souls, well for me the jury is still out on whether such a thing
> > >> exists at all, that is I do not equate the Self with the soul.
>
> > >> On Thursday, 25 October 2012 16:51:08 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>
> > >>> Lee , by consciousness I understand awareness of something like sound
> > >>> , sight , etc., by evolution I understand the growth from simple
> > >>> life-forms to complex life-forms. As for the difference between chimps
> > >>> and humans is not that of consciousness but that of intelligence. You
> > >>> are trying to say that your soul is more developed than that of chimps
> > >>> or maybe a chimp is lacking of soul. The whole argument is about us
> > >>> having individual souls which I do not agree with , I believe in a
> > >>> universal Soul and the rest to be just dust.
>
> > >>> On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 6:11 PM, Lee Douglas <leerev...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>> > Umm I'm not sure I agree with that either RP.  What I mean by level
> > of
> > >>> > consciousness is rather things like, sense of Self, emotions,
> > ability to
> > >>> > use
> > >>> > tools.  If it helps lets us call it scale instead of level.  I don't
> > >>> > think
> > >>> > that level of evolution is correct, not really.  I think of
> > evolution
> > >>> > over
> > >>> > time.  We humans shared some 5-6 million years ago a common ancestor
> > >>> > with
> > >>> > chimps.  If we humans have carried on evolving (and we have) and
> > chimps
> > >>> > have
> > >>> > carried on evolving (as they have) then we share a level of
> > evolution.
> > >>> > We
> > >>> > have both evolved over the same span of time from our common
> > ancestor.
>
> > >>> > I do agree though that, I shall use the term, 'Lesser order' animals
> > are
> > >>> > inferior to us, but that highlights my insistence on grouping by
> > 'levels
> > >>> > of
> > >>> > consciousness .  Is it true to say that chimp is at a lower level of
> > >>> > consciousness as a human?  Well I think it quite correct to suppose
> > so.
>
> > >>> > However remembering that all of this is in reply to your initial
> > post,
> > >>> > then
> > >>> > it is clear that some of the creatures we share this planet with can
> > be
> > >>> > said
> > >>> > to not be conscious at all.  Does an Ameba have consciousness?  But
> > >>> > perhaps
> > >>> > more importantly to this discussion, can a creature without
> > >>> > consciousness be
> > >>> > said to be a 'being'?
>
> > >>> > Before I go let me just clarify why this phrase 'intensity of
> > senses'
> > >>> > makes
> > >>> > no sense to me when it comes to consciousness.  A falcon has far
> > >>> > superior
> > >>> > eyesight than a human, but according to how I have defined
> > consciousness
> > >>> > is
> > >>> > clearly on a lower level than humans.
>
> > >>> > Personally I don't think that searching for proof of God's existence
> > is
> > >>> > any
> > >>> > good at all.  You either believe such a thing IS or you do not, and
> > that
> > >>> > is
> > >>> > good enough for me.
>
> > >>> > On Wednesday, 24 October 2012 18:06:20 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>
> > >>> >> Lee , what you mean by level of consciousness is actually the level
> > of
> > >>> >> evolution , but that doesn't mean that the less evolved are in any
> > >>> >> manner inferior to their highly evolved brethren --humans have the
> > >>> >> concept of God but animals haven't and still all are equal in the
> > eyes
> > >>> >> of God even though He has made everyone in a different mold. It is
> > >>> >> only if we see everyone with an eye of equality that we can be
> > truly
> > >>> >> compassionate towards all regardless of their position in the
> > >>> >> evolutionary ladder.
>
> > >>> >> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 10:02 PM, Lee Douglas <leerev...@gmail.com>
>
> > >>> >> wrote:
> > >>> >> > Heh you are the master of the non answer, are you a politician?
>
> > >>> >> > I'm going to assume then that yes crows are conscious, and what
> > you
> > >>> >> > may
> > >>> >> > call
> > >>> >> > the level of intelligence, and the intensity of the sense also
> > mean
> > >>> >> > yes.
> > >>> >> > Which makes your previous words contradictory.
>
> > >>> >> > This phrase though, 'intensity of sense', makes no sense to me.
> >  What
> > >>> >> > does
> > >>> >> > it mean then for consciousness for those beings who have more
> > intense
> > >>> >> > senses?
>
> > >>> >> > On Wednesday, 24 October 2012 17:26:41 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>
> > >>> >> >> There is a matter of the intensity of the senses and the level
> > of
> > >>> >> >> intelligence , but , my friend , crows are beings and not
> > machines -
> > >>> >> >> ah , robots.
>
> > >>> >> >> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 9:48 PM, Lee Douglas <
> > leerev...@gmail.com>
> > >>> >> >> wrote:
> > >>> >> >> > Ahhhh RP!  You don't change at all sir do you.
>
> > >>> >> >> > There are of course many, many people and soooo much
> > literature
> > >>> >> >> > that
> > >>> >> >> > disagrees with your wishy washyness here.  So much of it in
> > fact
> > >>> >> >> > that
> > >>> >> >> > I
> > >>> >> >> > don't even feel the need to defend my stance at all.  So let
> > me
> > >>> >> >> > just
> > >>> >> >> > finish
> > >>> >> >> > by asking you two questions.
>
> > >>> >> >> > Are crows conscious?
>
> > >>> >> >> > Is a crows consciousness the same as a humans?
>
> > >>> >> >> > On Wednesday, 24 October 2012 17:08:51 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>
> > >>> >> >> >> That which exist is Being , and consciousness does't have
> > levels
> > >>> >> >> >> but
> > >>> >> >> >> parameters -- sound , sight , etc.
>
> > >>> >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 8:45 PM, Lee Douglas
> > >>> >> >> >> <leerev...@gmail.com>
> > >>> >> >> >> wrote:
> > >>> >> >> >> > The we disagree again RP.  Unless you and I have differing
> > >>> >> >> >> > concepts
> > >>> >> >> >> > on
> > >>> >> >> >> > what
> > >>> >> >> >> > consciousness is?  My cats are conscious, would they have
> > an
> > >>> >> >> >> > understanding
> > >>> >> >> >> > of God as a human does?  I suspect not, but they are surely
> > >>> >> >> >> > conscious
> > >>> >> >> >> > creatures.  It may be that I infer I am currently in
> > discourse
> > >>> >> >> >> > with
> > >>> >> >> >> > another
> > >>> >> >> >> > conscious entity, but I'd rather say it is empirically
> > correct
> > >>> >> >> >> > that I
> > >>> >> >> >> > am
> > >>> >> >> >> > doing so rather than it is an inference that I can make.
> >  After
> > >>> >> >> >> > all
> > >>> >> >> >> > are
> > >>> >> >> >> > we
> > >>> >> >> >> > not members of the same species?  Without being too
> > general, I
> > >>> >> >> >> > think
> > >>> >> >> >> > such
> > >>> >> >> >> > inferences that I can make about myself as a human must
> > also
> > >>> >> >> >> > hold
> > >>> >> >> >> > true
> > >>> >> >> >> > for
> > >>> >> >> >> > other humans.  I must breathe to live, so can I infer that
> > >>> >> >> >> > others
> > >>> >> >> >> > of
> > >>> >> >> >> > my
> > >>> >> >> >> > species must also do the same, or can I claim knowledge
> > that it
> > >>> >> >> >> > is
> > >>> >> >> >> > true?
>
> > >>> >> >> >> > I get what you mean of course, I can ever only really say I
> > >>> >> >> >> > think,
> > >>> >> >> >> > therefore
> > >>> >> >> >> > I am.  However when an inference takes place day in and day
> > >>> >> >> >> > out, I
> > >>> >> >> >> > think
> > >>> >> >> >> > it
> > >>> >> >> >> > better to regard
>
> ...
>
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