Re: Mind's Eye thought experiments

It's been fast paced today, snappin' my fingers at each task in my path
but I am astonished! You tried to merge this offshoot back onto topic,
regarding snap fizz and PTs (my word for it) with crazy comes a sack of
stones. Kudos!

ps. Regarding stones, I'm working up an answer for you.

On 10/7/2012 10:51 AM, archytas wrote:
> The archaeological evidence is that such things as the move to farming
> from hunter-gathering did not improve the human lot for those who
> cleared and dug sod (arthritis etc. from the work). The obvious issue
> for present society concerns the dubious status of our work and life-
> style ideologies. Slave-making ants kill the adults in their host
> ants and steal the 'eggs' in order to steal the work as they become
> adult by making them raise their own brood. Even in enslaved ant
> consciousness something inspires 'rebellion' and 'duty' to the wider
> collective. Humans have a sad history of enslavement and debt
> peonage.
> Undergraduates can be heard every year bemoaning salaries on offer for
> 'all their hard work' - few of them have done any! The Chinese refer
> to their graduates who don't get the good jobs as 'Ant People'. Some
> of my old colleagues inside technological manufacturing used to note
> the need for workers was disappearing faster than most knew as work
> and skill is embodied in technology (an old marxist theme). My own
> feeling is that we have killed off much valuable stuff that James
> suggests through the ejukation system - falsely imagining subjects
> designed in our dubious past teach anything other than control fraud.
> Even medical training involves a lot of unnecessary rot.
> Some of us think machines are better at 'thinking' than most people
> (soon Gabby will be made redundant from her Gad-fly role once I clear
> up a few teething problems with the bots!), partly because no human
> can encompass the data loads. Allan and I share problems with our
> 'flash memory' - buzz, ping, PTSD etc. - (it's my time of year to have
> flash-backs to Northern Ireland) - getting old is lousy - soon my
> friendly solid state world will move from Enlightenment to
> Entanglement as I stroke Schrodinger's cat. We have now done this
> experimentally with some tinkering.
> Memory is increasingly viewed as about our ability to predict the
> future - that is its purpose is for this. We find it in non-human
> life-forms too. This is related to a general science-view of why a
> system would invest in the resources to have memory at all. I'll
> leave this babble with the question 'where do the Spartacus ants
> raised by the slavers get the memories that inspire rebellion'?
>
> On 6 Oct, 19:50, James<ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> From another perspective one might like to appreciate the role (or a
>> role) of life as within an integral spectrum. If there is a world with
>> meaning beyond our conceptions it would present a challenge to undertake
>> exploration and discovery. Regardless of conception or outside our
>> capacity we might be bound by greater rules in nature. These are
>> questions I think that arise when the suspicion of being led becomes too
>> great to ignore, fear has a corrupting influence on that as does the
>> diverse symbols at our disposal provided by language, corrupting as in
>> coloring and distorting. But the tools of identity, shared language and
>> meanings can facilitate discovery. Internal motives can present a
>> struggle for a clear picture, and yet without them what impetus would
>> there be? Context is amazingly significant, the when and where, I've
>> found. That is in part a few features of what I am exploring currently,
>> among the jumble. This can be intimate stuff, thanks for sharing what
>> you gather. :)
>>
>> On 10/5/2012 4:25 AM, Allan H wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Lately I have been trying to get out of this physical concept of things
>>> and look at them from a souls to return to soul with the body as nothing
>>> more than a means of existing in this physical world. this seems to be
>>> changing the perspective on what is conceived as reality.
>>> Allan
>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 5:50 AM, James<ashkas...@gmail.com
>>> <mailto:ashkas...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>> We may be on the same page Gabby, my imagined future possibilities
>>> are still clouded by unknowns (to me). That I consider a consequence
>>> of mental bondage to current circumstances, and left unchecked can
>>> be demoralizing to creative intelligence. As far as I can tell we
>>> are meant to invent solutions to challenges, and hold on as long as
>>> possible until the opportunity arises. My opinion is that we can do
>>> little to force change but as facilitators we can pursue strategic
>>> challenges that will open those opportunities.
>>
>>> If I said that in 10 years the technology should be accessible to
>>> refine garbage, wood or any other fuel into electricity at 80+
>>> conversion efficiency from common household materials in your
>>> average (modern) garage there is no shortage of engineers that would
>>> call me a quack. If I said that you could do it today with moderate
>>> access to materials refining equipment, with a net generated income
>>> over the winter months, and it could be boosted by running a
>>> greenhouse and indoor fishery I would be surely nuts. SOFC, steam
>>> reforming, plasma reduction, pyrolytic reduction are a few terms for
>>> that type of nut.
>>
>>> I think we are missing the spirit of engineering in our social and
>>> political dialogue. It could just be me.. we seem to be able to
>>> redefine just about any kind of waste into an asset, but we insist
>>> that primitive human traits are superior and sacrosanct.
>>
>>> Navigating awkward transitions, that is what I think we are doing
>>> (not necessarily excellently, but making progress). Still passin'
>>> the buck here, your turn. Sorry for no answer Archy, too bad
>>> telepathy isn't an option because the picture is clear but I just
>>> don't trust the words yet.
>>
>>> On 10/4/2012 5:14 AM, gabbydott wrote:
>>
>>> That's right. Us end consumers of your brilliant ideas need time to
>>> consume your complex theories in simple practice for you to see
>>> where
>>> we fail to get your idea for you to better educate and motivate
>>> us. :p
>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 4:25 AM, James<ashkas...@gmail.com
>>> <mailto:ashkas...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>> I was hoping we could evolve sociologically in step with
>>> technology, that
>>> implies an intelligent management infrastructure that
>>> educates and motivates
>>> free agents to make contributions to the works of humanity.
>>> Suitably
>>> educated in the workings of organisms (especially how they
>>> relate and
>>> compare to man), the arts, sciences, elimination of
>>> destitution, poverty,
>>> mental illnesses, the list goes on.. It requires that we
>>> manage things
>>> intelligently, learn from mistakes and move forward. If this
>>> progress
>>> happened in a 100 years I think we would likely reduce our
>>> population to
>>> half within the next hundred, there is nothing logical about
>>> reproducing ad
>>> infinitum and by then the social costs should be obvious
>>> enough, added to
>>> the lack of need as we extend the human lifespan. I think we
>>> have a large
>>> potential in voluntary acts.
>>
>>> Who is pie in the sky now? :p
>>
>>> On 10/3/2012 5:57 PM, archytas wrote:
>>
>>> If workers aren't needed for work, what will happen to
>>> them? The
>>> animal and plant world answer is generally a 'return to
>>> nutrients'.
>>
>>> On 3 Oct, 09:57, Shekila
>>> Tieschmaker<shekilatieschma.....@yahoo.com
>>> <mailto:shekilatieschma...@yahoo.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>
>>> how do you get out this group thing ?
>>
>>> __________________________________
>>> From: James<ashkas...@gmail.com
>>> <mailto:ashkas...@gmail.com>>
>>> To: minds-eye@googlegroups.com
>>> <mailto:minds-eye@googlegroups.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 10:26 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye thought experiments
>>
>>> Well it is far worse (or better depending on who
>>> is looking at it), many
>>> of the older trades and crafts-people I've met
>>> had an appreciation for
>>> seeing their work as an artform. That would be
>>> my robot heaven, working
>>> toward a world where we can all pursue meaning
>>> and purposeful work without
>>> the burden of resource scarcity. What would it
>>> matter that someone wants to
>>> be a plumber or architect in a day when those
>>> positions are obsolete, if
>>> that is pursuing meaning, it would matter little
>>> more than what restaurant
>>> someone likes to the next guy. In a world that
>>> valued human contribution it
>>> might be a plus, there is a name associated with
>>> the foundation of my home,
>>> or certain furniture or I tweaked my engine to
>>> respond exactly the way I
>>> like in a curve, finding a way to shield a
>>> planet from gamma radiation,
>>> optimizing resource allocations in complex
>>> evolving environments from
>>> nanotech on up to transport vessels for
>>> interplanetary mining and
>>> settlement, etc..
>>> Back to the present time and scale there is the
>>> matter of plotting a
>>> course of innovation by meeting challenges.
>>> Laziness might be a challenge, and frailty, I
>>> haven't met many people
>>> who have had to wash clothes in a bathtub
>>> complain about the advancement of
>>> the washing machine, or get whimsical about
>>> enduring ailments we've found
>>> remedies or therapies for. We seem to be in a
>>> transitional stage, not quite
>>> coming to grips with the world we could create.
>>> Psychology is important to
>>> survival, nonproductive time as some call it, I
>>> eye some of them as suspect
>>> sociopaths. Being motivated can be very
>>> rewarding, it is too bad that out
>>> word for meaningfully motivated is "naive". I'm
>>> taking the long way 'round
>>> with this.
>>
>>> On 9/19/2012 5:56 PM, archytas wrote:
>>
>>> Thought experiments are devices of the
>>> imagination used to investigate
>>> the nature of things. Thought experimenting
>>> often takes place when the
>>> method of variation is employed in
>>> entertaining imaginative
>>> suppositions. They are used for diverse
>>> reasons in a variety of areas,
>>> including economics, history, mathematics,
>>> philosophy, and physics.
>>> Most often thought experiments are
>>> communicated in narrative form,
>>> sometimes through media like a diagram.
>>> Thought experiments should be
>>> distinguished from thinking about
>>> experiments, from merely imagining
>>> any experiments to be conducted outside the
>>> imagination, and from
>>> psychological experiments with thoughts.
>>> They should also be
>>> distinguished from counterfactual reasoning
>>> in general, as they seem
>>> to require an experimental element.
>>> http://plato.stanford.edu/__entries/thought-experiment/
>>> <http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/thought-experiment/>
>>
>>> One I like is the notion of robot heaven.
>>> It's easy enough to imagine
>>> a time when machines grow our food, build
>>> our shelter and do our
>>> work. The interesting stuff comes in
>>> thinking what this would mean
>>> for wealth distribution and the nature of
>>> society. What work would be
>>> left to do? One can also wonder what place
>>> any of our work ethics
>>> would have in such a society. There may be
>>> some deconstructive effect
>>> on just what current work ideologies are in
>>> place for.
>>
>>> One of the great improvements technology
>>> brought to my life is more or
>>> less never having to go into a bank. The
>>> only real innovations in
>>> banking are the ATM and electronic banking.
>>> This kind of technology
>>> and similar in agriculture and industry
>>> fundamentally reduce the
>>> amount of human effort to grow and make what
>>> we need. We are in
>>> partial state of robot heaven.
>>
>>> Our ideologies are not up to speed. Real
>>> unemployment is massive and
>>> education does little to provide job skills.
>>> We are sold life-styles
>>> and products by insane advertising. Job
>>> creation seems to be in
>>> perverse areas like financial services or
>>> bringing back attended gas-
>>> pumps. With more efficient production we
>>> should be able to afford a
>>> bigger social sector and I can't for the
>>> life of me understand why we
>>> allow competition through crap wages and
>>> conditions.
>>
>>> A great deal of what we pay for could be
>>> available more or less free.
>>> Educational content and utility banking are
>>> examples - these are areas
>>> that could be ratinalised like agriculture
>>> and manufacturing.
>>> Millions of jobs would go. We should be
>>> asking why jobs are so
>>> central to out thinking on wealth
>>> distribution and how we might
>>> encourage work without the rat race.
>>
>>> --
>>
>>> --
>>
>>> --
>>
>>> --
>>> (
>>> )
>>> |_D Allan
>>
>>> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>>
>>> I am a Natural Airgunner -
>>
>>> Full of Hot Air& Ready To Expel It Quickly.
>>
>>> --
>

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