Re: Mind's Eye thought experiments

The archaeological evidence is that such things as the move to farming
from hunter-gathering did not improve the human lot for those who
cleared and dug sod (arthritis etc. from the work). The obvious issue
for present society concerns the dubious status of our work and life-
style ideologies. Slave-making ants kill the adults in their host
ants and steal the 'eggs' in order to steal the work as they become
adult by making them raise their own brood. Even in enslaved ant
consciousness something inspires 'rebellion' and 'duty' to the wider
collective. Humans have a sad history of enslavement and debt
peonage.
Undergraduates can be heard every year bemoaning salaries on offer for
'all their hard work' - few of them have done any! The Chinese refer
to their graduates who don't get the good jobs as 'Ant People'. Some
of my old colleagues inside technological manufacturing used to note
the need for workers was disappearing faster than most knew as work
and skill is embodied in technology (an old marxist theme). My own
feeling is that we have killed off much valuable stuff that James
suggests through the ejukation system - falsely imagining subjects
designed in our dubious past teach anything other than control fraud.
Even medical training involves a lot of unnecessary rot.
Some of us think machines are better at 'thinking' than most people
(soon Gabby will be made redundant from her Gad-fly role once I clear
up a few teething problems with the bots!), partly because no human
can encompass the data loads. Allan and I share problems with our
'flash memory' - buzz, ping, PTSD etc. - (it's my time of year to have
flash-backs to Northern Ireland) - getting old is lousy - soon my
friendly solid state world will move from Enlightenment to
Entanglement as I stroke Schrodinger's cat. We have now done this
experimentally with some tinkering.
Memory is increasingly viewed as about our ability to predict the
future - that is its purpose is for this. We find it in non-human
life-forms too. This is related to a general science-view of why a
system would invest in the resources to have memory at all. I'll
leave this babble with the question 'where do the Spartacus ants
raised by the slavers get the memories that inspire rebellion'?

On 6 Oct, 19:50, James <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>  From another perspective one might like to appreciate the role (or a
> role) of life as within an integral spectrum. If there is a world with
> meaning beyond our conceptions it would present a challenge to undertake
> exploration and discovery. Regardless of conception or outside our
> capacity we might be bound by greater rules in nature. These are
> questions I think that arise when the suspicion of being led becomes too
> great to ignore, fear has a corrupting influence on that as does the
> diverse symbols at our disposal provided by language, corrupting as in
> coloring and distorting. But the tools of identity, shared language and
> meanings can facilitate discovery. Internal motives can present a
> struggle for a clear picture, and yet without them what impetus would
> there be? Context is amazingly significant, the when and where, I've
> found. That is in part a few features of what I am exploring currently,
> among the jumble. This can be intimate stuff, thanks for sharing what
> you gather. :)
>
> On 10/5/2012 4:25 AM, Allan H wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Lately I have been trying to get out of this physical concept of things
> > and look at them from a souls to return to soul with the body as nothing
> > more than a means of existing in this physical world.  this seems to be
> > changing the perspective on what is conceived as reality.
> > Allan
>
> > On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 5:50 AM, James <ashkas...@gmail.com
> > <mailto:ashkas...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> >     We may be on the same page Gabby, my imagined future possibilities
> >     are still clouded by unknowns (to me). That I consider a consequence
> >     of mental bondage to current circumstances, and left unchecked can
> >     be demoralizing to creative intelligence. As far as I can tell we
> >     are meant to invent solutions to challenges, and hold on as long as
> >     possible until the opportunity arises. My opinion is that we can do
> >     little to force change but as facilitators we can pursue strategic
> >     challenges that will open those opportunities.
>
> >     If I said that in 10 years the technology should be accessible to
> >     refine garbage, wood or any other fuel into electricity at 80+
> >     conversion efficiency from common household materials in your
> >     average (modern) garage there is no shortage of engineers that would
> >     call me a quack. If I said that you could do it today with moderate
> >     access to materials refining equipment, with a net generated income
> >     over the winter months, and it could be boosted by running a
> >     greenhouse and indoor fishery I would be surely nuts. SOFC, steam
> >     reforming, plasma reduction, pyrolytic reduction are a few terms for
> >     that type of nut.
>
> >     I think we are missing the spirit of engineering in our social and
> >     political dialogue. It could just be me.. we seem to be able to
> >     redefine just about any kind of waste into an asset, but we insist
> >     that primitive human traits are superior and sacrosanct.
>
> >     Navigating awkward transitions, that is what I think we are doing
> >     (not necessarily excellently, but making progress). Still passin'
> >     the buck here, your turn. Sorry for no answer Archy, too bad
> >     telepathy isn't an option because the picture is clear but I just
> >     don't trust the words yet.
>
> >     On 10/4/2012 5:14 AM, gabbydott wrote:
>
> >         That's right. Us end consumers of your brilliant ideas need time to
> >         consume your complex theories in simple practice for you to see
> >         where
> >         we fail to get your idea for you to better educate and motivate
> >         us. :p
>
> >         On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 4:25 AM, James<ashkas...@gmail.com
> >         <mailto:ashkas...@gmail.com>>  wrote:
>
> >             I was hoping we could evolve sociologically in step with
> >             technology, that
> >             implies an intelligent management infrastructure that
> >             educates and motivates
> >             free agents to make contributions to the works of humanity.
> >             Suitably
> >             educated in the workings of organisms (especially how they
> >             relate and
> >             compare to man), the arts, sciences, elimination of
> >             destitution, poverty,
> >             mental illnesses, the list goes on.. It requires that we
> >             manage things
> >             intelligently, learn from mistakes and move forward. If this
> >             progress
> >             happened in a 100 years I think we would likely reduce our
> >             population to
> >             half within the next hundred, there is nothing logical about
> >             reproducing ad
> >             infinitum and by then the social costs should be obvious
> >             enough, added to
> >             the lack of need as we extend the human lifespan. I think we
> >             have a large
> >             potential in voluntary acts.
>
> >             Who is pie in the sky now? :p
>
> >             On 10/3/2012 5:57 PM, archytas wrote:
>
> >                 If workers aren't needed for work, what will happen to
> >                 them?  The
> >                 animal and plant world answer is generally a 'return to
> >                 nutrients'.
>
> >                 On 3 Oct, 09:57, Shekila
> >                 Tieschmaker<shekilatieschma.....@yahoo.com
> >                 <mailto:shekilatieschma...@yahoo.com>>
> >                 wrote:
>
> >                     how do you get out this group thing ?
>
> >                         __________________________________
> >                         From: James<ashkas...@gmail.com
> >                         <mailto:ashkas...@gmail.com>>
> >                         To: minds-eye@googlegroups.com
> >                         <mailto:minds-eye@googlegroups.com>
> >                         Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 10:26 PM
> >                         Subject: Re: Mind's Eye thought experiments
>
> >                         Well it is far worse (or better depending on who
> >                         is looking at it), many
> >                         of the older trades and crafts-people I've met
> >                         had an appreciation for
> >                         seeing their work as an artform. That would be
> >                         my robot heaven, working
> >                         toward a world where we can all pursue meaning
> >                         and purposeful work without
> >                         the burden of resource scarcity. What would it
> >                         matter that someone wants to
> >                         be a plumber or architect in a day when those
> >                         positions are obsolete, if
> >                         that is pursuing meaning, it would matter little
> >                         more than what restaurant
> >                         someone likes to the next guy. In a world that
> >                         valued human contribution it
> >                         might be a plus, there is a name associated with
> >                         the foundation of my home,
> >                         or certain furniture or I tweaked my engine to
> >                         respond exactly the way I
> >                         like in a curve, finding a way to shield a
> >                         planet from gamma radiation,
> >                         optimizing resource allocations in complex
> >                         evolving environments from
> >                         nanotech on up to transport vessels for
> >                         interplanetary mining and
> >                         settlement, etc..
> >                         Back to the present time and scale there is the
> >                         matter of plotting a
> >                         course of innovation by meeting challenges.
> >                         Laziness might be a challenge, and frailty, I
> >                         haven't met many people
> >                         who have had to wash clothes in a bathtub
> >                         complain about the advancement of
> >                         the washing machine, or get whimsical about
> >                         enduring ailments we've found
> >                         remedies or therapies for. We seem to be in a
> >                         transitional stage, not quite
> >                         coming to grips with the world we could create.
> >                         Psychology is important to
> >                         survival, nonproductive time as some call it, I
> >                         eye some of them as suspect
> >                         sociopaths. Being motivated can be very
> >                         rewarding, it is too bad that out
> >                         word for meaningfully motivated is "naive". I'm
> >                         taking the long way 'round
> >                         with this.
>
> >                         On 9/19/2012 5:56 PM, archytas wrote:
>
> >                             Thought experiments are devices of the
> >                             imagination used to investigate
> >                             the nature of things. Thought experimenting
> >                             often takes place when the
> >                             method of variation is employed in
> >                             entertaining imaginative
> >                             suppositions. They are used for diverse
> >                             reasons in a variety of areas,
> >                             including economics, history, mathematics,
> >                             philosophy, and physics.
> >                             Most often thought experiments are
> >                             communicated in narrative form,
> >                             sometimes through media like a diagram.
> >                             Thought experiments should be
> >                             distinguished from thinking about
> >                             experiments, from merely imagining
> >                             any experiments to be conducted outside the
> >                             imagination, and from
> >                             psychological experiments with thoughts.
> >                             They should also be
> >                             distinguished from counterfactual reasoning
> >                             in general, as they seem
> >                             to require an experimental element.
> >                            http://plato.stanford.edu/__entries/thought-experiment/
> >                             <http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/thought-experiment/>
>
> >                             One I like is the notion of robot heaven.
> >                               It's easy enough to imagine
> >                             a time when machines grow our food, build
> >                             our shelter and do our
> >                             work.  The interesting stuff comes in
> >                             thinking what this would mean
> >                             for wealth distribution and the nature of
> >                             society.  What work would be
> >                             left to do?  One can also wonder what place
> >                             any of our work ethics
> >                             would have in such a society.  There may be
> >                             some deconstructive effect
> >                             on just what current work ideologies are in
> >                             place for.
>
> >                             One of the great improvements technology
> >                             brought to my life is more or
> >                             less never having to go into a bank.  The
> >                             only real innovations in
> >                             banking are the ATM and electronic banking.
> >                               This kind of technology
> >                             and similar in agriculture and industry
> >                             fundamentally reduce the
> >                             amount of human effort to grow and make what
> >                             we need.  We are in
> >                             partial state of robot heaven.
>
> >                             Our ideologies are not up to speed.  Real
> >                             unemployment is massive and
> >                             education does little to provide job skills.
> >                               We are sold life-styles
> >                             and products by insane advertising.  Job
> >                             creation seems to be in
> >                             perverse areas like financial services or
> >                             bringing back attended gas-
> >                             pumps.  With more efficient production we
> >                             should be able to afford a
> >                             bigger social sector and I can't for the
> >                             life of me understand why we
> >                             allow competition through crap wages and
> >                             conditions.
>
> >                             A great deal of what we pay for could be
> >                             available more or less free.
> >                             Educational content and utility banking are
> >                             examples - these are areas
> >                             that could be ratinalised like agriculture
> >                             and manufacturing.
> >                             Millions of jobs would go.  We should be
> >                             asking why jobs are so
> >                             central to out thinking on wealth
> >                             distribution and how we might
> >                             encourage work without the rat race.
>
> >                         --
>
> >             --
>
> >     --
>
> > --
> >   (
> >    )
> > |_D Allan
>
> > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> > I am a Natural Airgunner -
>
> >   Full of Hot Air & Ready To Expel It Quickly.
>
> > --

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