Re: Mind's Eye thought experiments

I'll pick up the stone
(http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/07/reasons-matter-when-intuitions-dont-object/)
and argue that I cannot know if your Gods are false or not. Not
because I am not a religious man, or a black man, or a political man,
but because I am an individual and thereby only possess restrained
demonstrable God powers myself.

On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 10:36 AM, Vam <atewari2007@gmail.com> wrote:
> All Gods that religious men speak about, brandish shall we say, are false.
>
> The one distributing those "commandments" included.
>
> Which is not what I would say about individuals who take initiatives to
> restrict people from moral turpitude and unethical conduct.
>
>
> On Monday, October 15, 2012 11:01:46 AM UTC+5:30, Allan Heretic wrote:
>>
>> doesn't one of the commandments say something about false gods?
>> Allan
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 6:15 AM, rigsy03 <rig...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > Thank you, Vam- I hope it is another precious visit.
>> >
>> > Politics has become a "religion", as well. Just substitue a few words
>> > in your paragraph. :-)
>> >
>> > On Oct 13, 5:38 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> Rigs, I can't help but think of the presence of a daughter and her
>> >> family
>> >> as " Happy Times " with grand-daughters ... noise, play, shout,
>> >> request,
>> >> demand and irritate, reminisce and gossip ,,, ! Hope it acrually turns
>> >> to
>> >> be a happy interlude .
>> >>
>> >> I have no doubts about severely debilitating and cosmic effects of
>> >> religions that junk reason and humanity, and demand their adherents too
>> >> to
>> >> remain steadfast with the irrational. An institutional frame of clerics
>> >> and
>> >> clergy for global control is no more than a prison, covered with very
>> >> beguiling but false promise of freedom.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Saturday, October 13, 2012 6:20:40 PM UTC+5:30, rigsy03 wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Not sure if religion, cults, tribal mischief did not have the same
>> >> > effect Vam. Consider the countless wars, for instance. But I think
>> >> > western man has turn the Age of Machines into a new religion and one
>> >> > could draw many parallels- and has, via artists and authors. Anyway,
>> >> > after spending way too much time finding a new niche for my morning
>> >> > coffee maker before my daughter and two grand-daughters come for the
>> >> > Xmas holidays (!), I have certainly racked up the equivalent of a
>> >> > novena! BTW, a couple of years ago I noticed my feet were slightly
>> >> > stiff in the morning and I worried that my flight to the kitchen for
>> >> > a
>> >> > mug of coffee could be perilous so I bought one of those small coffee
>> >> > makers for the upstairs and now include a muffin- just to rev up the
>> >> > joints before I seize the day. :-) Anyway, this might be a good idea
>> >> > for any who need to warm/rev up. (This is my machine confession.) On
>> >> > the other hand, I have been negotiating with the Divine for a new
>> >> > lawn/
>> >> > snow guy and I am on the brink of success! lol
>> >>
>> >> > On Oct 11, 6:28 am, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > > Bingo ! * sounding the drums *
>> >>
>> >> > > But what gives it the merit also renders science blind to much that
>> >> > > is
>> >> > > essential to our humanity, which are abstract and non-material ...
>> >> > beauty,
>> >> > > ethics, morals, truth, compassion, happiness, love, etc.
>> >>
>> >> > > Albert Einstein expressed is eloquently ... as have several others.
>> >>
>> >> > > There has been much since science overwhelmed us. But everytime it
>> >> > > has
>> >> > > served to delete a part or measure of our humanity, mankind has
>> >> > > struck a
>> >> > > blow at its own foot !
>> >>
>> >> > > On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 5:46:04 PM UTC+5:30, rigsy03 wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > > > I wasn't clear. I was thinking about new ideas and inventions
>> >> > > > which
>> >> > > > made older ideas and inventions obsolete or mere stepping stones
>> >> > > > to a
>> >> > > > greater truth. Science seems more open to changes and advances
>> >> > > > for the
>> >> > > > most part though Darwin had a struggle but that was because he
>> >> > > > stepped
>> >> > > > into religious territory which might mean that we are more open
>> >> > > > to
>> >> > > > change when it does not involve emotions and beliefs versus
>> >> > > > demonstrable facts.
>> >>
>> >> > > > On Oct 9, 9:08 am, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > > > > It will still be more clever than the rest !
>> >>
>> >> > > > > On Tuesday, October 9, 2012 5:04:27 PM UTC+5:30, rigsy03 wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > > > > > Until the next cleverest man/woman comes along! :-)
>> >>
>> >> > > > > > On Oct 8, 5:56 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > > > > > > " Machines are only as clever as they have been programmed
>> >> > > > > > > to
>> >> > > > > > > be. In some cases that may mean smarter than some humans
>> >> > > > > > > for
>> >> > > > specific
>> >> > > > > > > acts or purposes ... "
>> >>
>> >> > > > > > > If a machine is programmed by the cleverest man,
>> >>
>> >> > > > > > > it would not be ' only ' as clever as it has been
>> >> > > > > > > programmed
>> >>
>> >> > > > > > > but it would be more clever than every other man on the
>> >> > > > > > > planet !
>> >>
>> >> > > > > > > On Monday, October 8, 2012 5:01:02 PM UTC+5:30, rigsy03
>> >> > > > > > > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > > > > > > > And certain ants have also figured out how to enter the
>> >> > > > > > > > honey
>> >> > bee
>> >> > > > as a
>> >> > > > > > > > parasite which has an ominous impact on pollination.
>> >> > > > > > > > Species
>> >> > pick
>> >> > > > up
>> >> > > > > > > > their behaviors from their groups- some are more
>> >> > > > > > > > dedicated-
>> >> > > > patterns
>> >> > > > > > > > can be disrupted.// Anyway, aren't you equating worth
>> >> > > > > > > > with
>> >> > money/
>> >> > > > > > > > salary?//Machines are only as clever as they have been
>> >> > programmed
>> >> > > > to
>> >> > > > > > > > be. In some cases that may mean smarter than some humans
>> >> > > > > > > > for
>> >> > > > specific
>> >> > > > > > > > acts or purposes but still short of general intelligence,
>> >> > insight
>> >> > > > and
>> >> > > > > > > > adaptation.// Old age is not necessarily "lousey" except
>> >> > > > > > > > the
>> >> > final
>> >> > > > > > > > chapter is death and certain goals were not realized or
>> >> > possible.
>> >> > > > Hard
>> >> > > > > > > > work/age does not create arthritis- that is a myth. The
>> >> > > > > > > > 12
>> >> > year
>> >> > > > old
>> >> > > > > > > > across the street has arthritis and started some exercise
>> >> > > > > > > > for
>> >> > > > > > > > violinists.
>> >>
>> >> > > > > > > > On Oct 7, 9:51 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > > > > > > > > The archaeological evidence is that such things as the
>> >> > > > > > > > > move
>> >> > to
>> >> > > > > > farming
>> >> > > > > > > > > from hunter-gathering did not improve the human lot for
>> >> > those
>> >> > > > who
>> >> > > > > > > > > cleared and dug sod (arthritis etc. from the work).
>> >> > > > > > > > > The
>> >> > obvious
>> >> > > > > > issue
>> >> > > > > > > > > for present society concerns the dubious status of our
>> >> > > > > > > > > work
>> >> > and
>> >> > > > > > life-
>> >> > > > > > > > > style ideologies. Slave-making ants kill the adults
>> >> > > > > > > > > in
>> >> > their
>> >> > > > host
>> >> > > > > > > > > ants and steal the 'eggs' in order to steal the work as
>> >> > > > > > > > > they
>> >> > > > become
>> >> > > > > > > > > adult by making them raise their own brood. Even in
>> >> > enslaved
>> >> > > > ant
>> >> > > > > > > > > consciousness something inspires 'rebellion' and 'duty'
>> >> > > > > > > > > to
>> >> > the
>> >> > > > wider
>> >> > > > > > > > > collective. Humans have a sad history of enslavement
>> >> > > > > > > > > and
>> >> > debt
>> >> > > > > > > > > peonage.
>> >> > > > > > > > > Undergraduates can be heard every year bemoaning
>> >> > > > > > > > > salaries on
>> >> > > > offer
>> >> > > > > > for
>> >> > > > > > > > > 'all their hard work' - few of them have done any! The
>> >> > Chinese
>> >> > > > > > refer
>> >> > > > > > > > > to their graduates who don't get the good jobs as 'Ant
>> >> > People'.
>> >> > > > > > Some
>> >> > > > > > > > > of my old colleagues inside technological manufacturing
>> >> > > > > > > > > used
>> >> > to
>> >> > > > note
>> >> > > > > > > > > the need for workers was disappearing faster than most
>> >> > > > > > > > > knew
>> >> > as
>> >> > > > work
>> >> > > > > > > > > and skill is embodied in technology (an old marxist
>> >> > > > > > > > > theme).
>> >> > My
>> >> > > > own
>> >> > > > > > > > > feeling is that we have killed off much valuable stuff
>> >> > > > > > > > > that
>> >> > > > James
>> >> > > > > > > > > suggests through the ejukation system - falsely
>> >> > > > > > > > > imagining
>> >> > > > subjects
>> >> > > > > > > > > designed in our dubious past teach anything other than
>> >> > control
>> >> > > > > > fraud.
>> >> > > > > > > > > Even medical training involves a lot of unnecessary
>> >> > > > > > > > > rot.
>> >> > > > > > > > > Some of us think machines are better at 'thinking' than
>> >> > > > > > > > > most
>> >> > > > people
>> >> > > > > > > > > (soon Gabby will be made redundant from her Gad-fly
>> >> > > > > > > > > role
>> >> > once I
>> >> > > > > > clear
>> >> > > > > > > > > up a few teething problems with the bots!), partly
>> >> > > > > > > > > because
>> >> > no
>> >> > > > human
>> >> > > > > > > > > can encompass the data loads. Allan and I share
>> >> > > > > > > > > problems
>> >> > with
>> >> > > > our
>> >> > > > > > > > > 'flash memory' - buzz, ping, PTSD etc. - (it's my time
>> >> > > > > > > > > of
>> >> > year
>> >> > > > to
>> >> > > > > > have
>> >> > > > > > > > > flash-backs to Northern Ireland) - getting old is lousy
>> >> > > > > > > > > -
>> >> > soon
>> >> > > > my
>> >> > > > > > > > > friendly solid state world will move from Enlightenment
>> >> > > > > > > > > to
>> >> > > > > > > > > Entanglement as I stroke Schrodinger's cat. We have
>> >> > > > > > > > > now
>> >> > done
>> >> > > > this
>> >> > > > > > > > > experimentally with some tinkering.
>> >> > > > > > > > > Memory is increasingly viewed as about our ability to
>> >> > predict
>> >> > > > the
>> >> > > > > > > > > future - that is its purpose is for this. We find it
>> >> > > > > > > > > in
>> >> > > > non-human
>> >> > > > > > > > > life-forms too. This is related to a general
>> >> > > > > > > > > science-view
>> >> > of
>> >> > > > why a
>> >> > > > > > > > > system would invest in the resources to have memory at
>> >> > > > > > > > > all.
>> >> > > > I'll
>> >> > > > > > > > > leave this babble with the question 'where do the
>> >> > > > > > > > > Spartacus
>> >> > ants
>> >> > > > > > > > > raised by the slavers get the memories that inspire
>> >> > rebellion'?
>> >>
>> >> > > > > > > > > On 6 Oct, 19:50, James <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > > > > > > > > > From another perspective one might like to
>> >> > > > > > > > > > appreciate the
>> >> > > > role
>> >> > > > > > (or a
>> >> > > > > > > > > > role) of life as within an integral spectrum. If
>> >> > > > > > > > > > there is
>> >> > a
>> >> > > > world
>> >> > > > > > with
>> >> > > > > > > > > > meaning beyond our conceptions it would present a
>> >> > challenge to
>> >> > > > > > > > undertake
>> >> > > > > > > > > > exploration and discovery. Regardless of conception
>> >> > > > > > > > > > or
>> >> > outside
>> >> > > > our
>> >> > > > > > > > > > capacity we might be bound by greater rules in
>> >> > > > > > > > > > nature.
>> >> > These
>> >> > > > are
>> >> > > > > > > > > > questions I think that arise when the suspicion of
>> >> > > > > > > > > > being
>> >> > led
>> >> > > > > > becomes
>> >> > > > > > > > too
>> >> > > > > > > > > > great to ignore, fear has a corrupting influence on
>> >> > > > > > > > > > that
>> >> > as
>> >> > > > does
>> >> > > > > > the
>> >> > > > > > > > > > diverse symbols at our disposal provided by language,
>> >> > > > corrupting
>> >> > > > > > as in
>> >> > > > > > > > > > coloring and distorting. But the tools of identity,
>> >> > > > > > > > > > shared
>> >> > > > > > language
>> >> > > > > > > > and
>> >> > > > > > > > > > meanings can facilitate discovery. Internal motives
>> >> > > > > > > > > > can
>> >> > > > present a
>> >> > > > > > > > > > struggle for a clear picture, and yet without them
>> >> > > > > > > > > > what
>> >> > > > impetus
>> >> > > > > > would
>> >> > > > > > > > > > there be? Context is amazingly significant, the when
>> >> > > > > > > > > > and
>> >> > > > where,
>> >> > > > > > I've
>> >> > > > > > > > > > found. That is in part a few features of what I am
>> >> > exploring
>> >> > > > > > > > currently,
>> >> > > > > > > > > > among the jumble. This can be intimate stuff, thanks
>> >> > > > > > > > > > for
>> >> > > > sharing
>> >> > > > > > what
>> >> > > > > > > > > > you gather. :)
>> >>
>> >> > > > > > > > > > On 10/5/2012 4:25 AM, Allan H wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > Lately I have been trying to get out of this
>> >> > > > > > > > > > > physical
>> >> > > > concept of
>> >>
>> >> ...
>> >>
>> >> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>> >>
>> >> - Show quoted text -
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> (
>> )
>> |_D Allan
>>
>> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>>
>>
>> I am a Natural Airgunner -
>>
>> Full of Hot Air & Ready To Expel It Quickly.
>
> --
>
>
>

--