Re: Mind's Eye Re: A Call To Democratic Arms?

We need you to ride shotgun, Allan! True, I would probably roll myself
up in Archy's woolly thinking like Cleopatra- esp. if he added some
silk.

On Jan 16, 1:05 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Personally Neil I do not think the four of you would be capable of
> making that type of evaluation.
> No offence taken  ...  every one listed is as bigoted to their own
> view as I am.. (",)
> Allan
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 12:51 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'm a very woolly thinker - and part of the technology I want to see
> > would entail a bunch of us - say me, rigs, Gabs and James - being able
> > to decide on whether the public or private sector is 'better' (I
> > suspect we'd all say this depends on circumstances) without making the
> > question into some ideological contest - and then on to the world more
> > generally.  I've no doubt we could all give examples and counter-
> > examples and suspect we'd find some consensus on not really being very
> > interested.  What I really wonder is why such matters are contested
> > ideologically rather than being subject to transparent record.
>
> > On Jan 15, 10:32 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Didn't know you were a Papist rigs!  Which changes about nothing - I
> >> was dragged up Proddy until I got Dad to write a note to school
> >> excusing me RE.  I did my maths and English homework in the classes -
> >> still took the exams and came top twice - which rather suggests how
> >> useless classrooms can be.  I think a great deal is recoverable from
> >> religion concerning practical democracy and the loss of decency and
> >> organic solidarity.
> >> I've been reading a lot of academic material on banking systems for
> >> some lectures,  Most tell the story that what has been done since the
> >> crash have really done nothing - there's one athttp://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2132152(pdf
> >> downloads if anyone is interested) - and reading it is typically
> >> bleak.  I've stopped the reading, partly because I have enough, but
> >> more because I'm depressed by how powerless it makes me feel.  Rosanne
> >> Barr seemed the best presidential candidate to me.  We need to get
> >> back to farming, building and making the planet a sensible collective.
>
> >> We used to try to teach the logic underlying various discipline -
> >> typically through learning artificial languages that demonstrate
> >> ambiguity lies in even simple constructs in ordinary languages.
> >> Tarski was usually key.  One can dream of a machine that would do this
> >> in real time as politicians speak - but only dream.  One can end up in
> >> such stuff as Chu sets - sadly not as easy as Casey Jones.  What I
> >> could see in near-term would be a database that worked in near real-
> >> time that immediately produced facts that made politician's statements
> >> as ambiguous as they really are factually and identified rhetorical
> >> tricks as they spoke.  Academic work in this area like discourse
> >> analysis is painfully slow.
>
> >> Tony Blair was a good orator - but now he looks the paradigm case of
> >> 'how do you know this man is lying - because his lips are moving'
> >> along with Nixon.  The current technology is some combination of
> >> oratory, rhetoric and infotainment - perhaps even combined with
> >> education as discipline.  I would want a technology that was very
> >> different, more transparent and honest - and I would see machine
> >> thinking as part of it all - in some areas of science we are fairly
> >> sure the machines are smarter than us already.  I can think up some
> >> kind of 'mind-repository' as science fiction - Hawking is saying
> >> biological intelligence may be at the end of its evolutionary span.
> >> The Frankenstein and totalitarian elements always raise their heads -
> >> of course.
>
> >> Gordon Brown - the idiot who sold our gold reserves - used to say 'we
> >> must be proud of our British heritage' -  but such is never said in
> >> the spirit of analysis of the good and the disasters.  I'm pretty sure
> >> machines and software could show all our politicians now contest in
> >> such actually meaningless drivel.  Some of us believe this already.  I
> >> wonder if technology exposing such would generate space for the real
> >> dialogue?
>
> >> On 15 Jan, 12:14, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > It appears chimps are willing to share a banana fairly and we are
> >> > closely related- it's a start. (NPR or BBC) But also heard farmland
> >> > was selling for $10,000. an acre and discouraging young independent
> >> > farmers (which will lead to more agribusiness swallowing up the
> >> > land).//There is a very long history promoting power and wealth- as a
> >> > sign of worldly success and divine favor- not sure if there is any way
> >> > to abolish that notion- well illustrated by the top tiers of
> >> > socialists and communists- even religious groups.// To be a
> >> > conservative may mean you have something to conserve (from an old
> >> > deceased friend); conservatives reward themselves with their own
> >> > efforts while liberals reward everyone with other people's efforts
> >> > (thoughts while cooking-rigs). Politicians make endless promises to
> >> > the poor and middle class in order to secure their votes and stay in
> >> > office since they(politicians) become unfit for work in the real
> >> > world.//I think I wanted to be a good person rather than a rich person
> >> > but I was brainwashed by Catholicism...wasn't I?//
>
> >> > On Jan 14, 9:21 pm, James <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > > There are a number of trade routes built into the rewards system though,
> >> > > for example a simple formula might be:
>
> >> > > Cities favor growth of tax base and expansion, attraction of prospective
> >> > > citizens and businesses might favor a financial institution over a
> >> > > private home builder, the contractor may get tax breaks through tricks
> >> > > between the bank and taxing authorities to greatly increase profits for
> >> > > everyone except the buyer. The financial institution rewards contractors
> >> > > and gains from relationships with all three and everyone has their hands
> >> > > in the others' pocket making gains from the buyer. The whole system is
> >> > > in the rewards game and it is designed to favor those who can leverage
> >> > > scale and the promise of a shared economic gain.
>
> >> > > My thinking is very in line with Andrew's on establishing a higher
> >> > > baseline, I think it would be a worthwhile investment in humanity. But
> >> > > it doesn't sound probable as long as we are addicted to perpetual growth
> >> > > schemes that rely on massive excess capacity and waste to prop up an
> >> > > increasingly top heavy infrastructure.
>
> >> > > Someone once said that an empty stomach doesn't make the best advisor
> >> > > for the future (or similarly rather). I think that cuts right to Neil's
> >> > > second brain (the enteric nervous system) that drives an an organism
> >> > > with primal survival motives, and that is the manipulation in play, I
> >> > > cannot imagine the promise of democracy seeing the light of day while
> >> > > higher cognitive functions such as navigating complex multidimensional
> >> > > environments (societies/states) to solve complex sociological challenges
> >> > > (lest we believe this is just about money, or at all?!) toward mutually
> >> > > beneficial outcomes. Unless I was blinded by the pie in the sky I had
> >> > > something along the lines of a just, healthy and productive society in
> >> > > mind when first learning about democracy.
>
> >> > > What I see is a large part of people's lives driven by fear, that primal
> >> > > second brain. I think it should piss us off that we could be far more
> >> > > productive if someone cared to put the infrastructure in place for our
> >> > > outputs to be recycled back into society to a larger and more integral
> >> > > extent, from lack of imagination and dominance of a culture of usury and
> >> > > isolation. We can invent money but not cure poverty? Who is driving the
> >> > > boat? (oh democracy, hmm)..
>
> >> > > Distribution of prestige and privilege in our society is as powerful
> >> > > today as it has been for a long time, how we pursue that I think will
> >> > > determine whether we fulfill the promise of democracy. The society we
> >> > > engineer will determine whether the activities of citizens resemble
> >> > > intelligent, caring, inspired beings or a mound of parasites and
> >> > > resource aggregating automata. Pardon the crude reductionism to an
> >> > > absurd dichotomy.
>
> >> > > The possibility of a better world, is it armament enough? Takes more
> >> > > than imagination, but really, what is it that separates us from the
> >> > > other animals?!
>
> >> > > On 1/14/2013 9:43 AM, archytas wrote:
>
> >> > > > In HE in the UK state school students marginally outperform those from
> >> > > > private education - until they enter the job market.  Social mobility
> >> > > > between income groups has fallen substantially across the west.  We
> >> > > > have lost a grip on the economic dynamic.  Many economists believed
> >> > > > the rentier part of capitalism would wither away - much as Marx
> >> > > > thought the State would.  What interests me is that we end up with the
> >> > > > 'socialist state' either through 'revolution' or via a financial
> >> > > > system stacked in favour of sending money to the very rich who form a
> >> > > > politburo of their own.  My guess is we are trapped because we can't
> >> > > > change financialism and attitudes to work - through an underlying fear
> >> > > > of freedom and lack of recognition this has to be structured in such a
> >> > > > way there is no need to think much about it once we have something
> >> > > > decent in place.
>
> >> > > > On Jan 13, 2:01 pm, rigs<rigs...@gmail.com>  wrote:
> >> > > >> Regard the lilies of the field...
>
> >> > > >> In fairness, the US has its share/history of ex-pats.
>
> >> > > >> Debt has a greater earning potential than savings for financial
> >> > > >> instiutions. Living beyond one's means is promoted in various ways.
> >> > > >> America is the land of re-invention (social and
>
> ...
>
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