Re: Mind's Eye Re: A Call To Democratic Arms?

Personally Neil I do not think the four of you would be capable of
making that type of evaluation.
No offence taken ... every one listed is as bigoted to their own
view as I am.. (",)
Allan

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 12:51 AM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm a very woolly thinker - and part of the technology I want to see
> would entail a bunch of us - say me, rigs, Gabs and James - being able
> to decide on whether the public or private sector is 'better' (I
> suspect we'd all say this depends on circumstances) without making the
> question into some ideological contest - and then on to the world more
> generally. I've no doubt we could all give examples and counter-
> examples and suspect we'd find some consensus on not really being very
> interested. What I really wonder is why such matters are contested
> ideologically rather than being subject to transparent record.
>
> On Jan 15, 10:32 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Didn't know you were a Papist rigs! Which changes about nothing - I
>> was dragged up Proddy until I got Dad to write a note to school
>> excusing me RE. I did my maths and English homework in the classes -
>> still took the exams and came top twice - which rather suggests how
>> useless classrooms can be. I think a great deal is recoverable from
>> religion concerning practical democracy and the loss of decency and
>> organic solidarity.
>> I've been reading a lot of academic material on banking systems for
>> some lectures, Most tell the story that what has been done since the
>> crash have really done nothing - there's one athttp://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2132152(pdf
>> downloads if anyone is interested) - and reading it is typically
>> bleak. I've stopped the reading, partly because I have enough, but
>> more because I'm depressed by how powerless it makes me feel. Rosanne
>> Barr seemed the best presidential candidate to me. We need to get
>> back to farming, building and making the planet a sensible collective.
>>
>> We used to try to teach the logic underlying various discipline -
>> typically through learning artificial languages that demonstrate
>> ambiguity lies in even simple constructs in ordinary languages.
>> Tarski was usually key. One can dream of a machine that would do this
>> in real time as politicians speak - but only dream. One can end up in
>> such stuff as Chu sets - sadly not as easy as Casey Jones. What I
>> could see in near-term would be a database that worked in near real-
>> time that immediately produced facts that made politician's statements
>> as ambiguous as they really are factually and identified rhetorical
>> tricks as they spoke. Academic work in this area like discourse
>> analysis is painfully slow.
>>
>> Tony Blair was a good orator - but now he looks the paradigm case of
>> 'how do you know this man is lying - because his lips are moving'
>> along with Nixon. The current technology is some combination of
>> oratory, rhetoric and infotainment - perhaps even combined with
>> education as discipline. I would want a technology that was very
>> different, more transparent and honest - and I would see machine
>> thinking as part of it all - in some areas of science we are fairly
>> sure the machines are smarter than us already. I can think up some
>> kind of 'mind-repository' as science fiction - Hawking is saying
>> biological intelligence may be at the end of its evolutionary span.
>> The Frankenstein and totalitarian elements always raise their heads -
>> of course.
>>
>> Gordon Brown - the idiot who sold our gold reserves - used to say 'we
>> must be proud of our British heritage' - but such is never said in
>> the spirit of analysis of the good and the disasters. I'm pretty sure
>> machines and software could show all our politicians now contest in
>> such actually meaningless drivel. Some of us believe this already. I
>> wonder if technology exposing such would generate space for the real
>> dialogue?
>>
>> On 15 Jan, 12:14, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > It appears chimps are willing to share a banana fairly and we are
>> > closely related- it's a start. (NPR or BBC) But also heard farmland
>> > was selling for $10,000. an acre and discouraging young independent
>> > farmers (which will lead to more agribusiness swallowing up the
>> > land).//There is a very long history promoting power and wealth- as a
>> > sign of worldly success and divine favor- not sure if there is any way
>> > to abolish that notion- well illustrated by the top tiers of
>> > socialists and communists- even religious groups.// To be a
>> > conservative may mean you have something to conserve (from an old
>> > deceased friend); conservatives reward themselves with their own
>> > efforts while liberals reward everyone with other people's efforts
>> > (thoughts while cooking-rigs). Politicians make endless promises to
>> > the poor and middle class in order to secure their votes and stay in
>> > office since they(politicians) become unfit for work in the real
>> > world.//I think I wanted to be a good person rather than a rich person
>> > but I was brainwashed by Catholicism...wasn't I?//
>>
>> > On Jan 14, 9:21 pm, James <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > There are a number of trade routes built into the rewards system though,
>> > > for example a simple formula might be:
>>
>> > > Cities favor growth of tax base and expansion, attraction of prospective
>> > > citizens and businesses might favor a financial institution over a
>> > > private home builder, the contractor may get tax breaks through tricks
>> > > between the bank and taxing authorities to greatly increase profits for
>> > > everyone except the buyer. The financial institution rewards contractors
>> > > and gains from relationships with all three and everyone has their hands
>> > > in the others' pocket making gains from the buyer. The whole system is
>> > > in the rewards game and it is designed to favor those who can leverage
>> > > scale and the promise of a shared economic gain.
>>
>> > > My thinking is very in line with Andrew's on establishing a higher
>> > > baseline, I think it would be a worthwhile investment in humanity. But
>> > > it doesn't sound probable as long as we are addicted to perpetual growth
>> > > schemes that rely on massive excess capacity and waste to prop up an
>> > > increasingly top heavy infrastructure.
>>
>> > > Someone once said that an empty stomach doesn't make the best advisor
>> > > for the future (or similarly rather). I think that cuts right to Neil's
>> > > second brain (the enteric nervous system) that drives an an organism
>> > > with primal survival motives, and that is the manipulation in play, I
>> > > cannot imagine the promise of democracy seeing the light of day while
>> > > higher cognitive functions such as navigating complex multidimensional
>> > > environments (societies/states) to solve complex sociological challenges
>> > > (lest we believe this is just about money, or at all?!) toward mutually
>> > > beneficial outcomes. Unless I was blinded by the pie in the sky I had
>> > > something along the lines of a just, healthy and productive society in
>> > > mind when first learning about democracy.
>>
>> > > What I see is a large part of people's lives driven by fear, that primal
>> > > second brain. I think it should piss us off that we could be far more
>> > > productive if someone cared to put the infrastructure in place for our
>> > > outputs to be recycled back into society to a larger and more integral
>> > > extent, from lack of imagination and dominance of a culture of usury and
>> > > isolation. We can invent money but not cure poverty? Who is driving the
>> > > boat? (oh democracy, hmm)..
>>
>> > > Distribution of prestige and privilege in our society is as powerful
>> > > today as it has been for a long time, how we pursue that I think will
>> > > determine whether we fulfill the promise of democracy. The society we
>> > > engineer will determine whether the activities of citizens resemble
>> > > intelligent, caring, inspired beings or a mound of parasites and
>> > > resource aggregating automata. Pardon the crude reductionism to an
>> > > absurd dichotomy.
>>
>> > > The possibility of a better world, is it armament enough? Takes more
>> > > than imagination, but really, what is it that separates us from the
>> > > other animals?!
>>
>> > > On 1/14/2013 9:43 AM, archytas wrote:
>>
>> > > > In HE in the UK state school students marginally outperform those from
>> > > > private education - until they enter the job market. Social mobility
>> > > > between income groups has fallen substantially across the west. We
>> > > > have lost a grip on the economic dynamic. Many economists believed
>> > > > the rentier part of capitalism would wither away - much as Marx
>> > > > thought the State would. What interests me is that we end up with the
>> > > > 'socialist state' either through 'revolution' or via a financial
>> > > > system stacked in favour of sending money to the very rich who form a
>> > > > politburo of their own. My guess is we are trapped because we can't
>> > > > change financialism and attitudes to work - through an underlying fear
>> > > > of freedom and lack of recognition this has to be structured in such a
>> > > > way there is no need to think much about it once we have something
>> > > > decent in place.
>>
>> > > > On Jan 13, 2:01 pm, rigs<rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > >> Regard the lilies of the field...
>>
>> > > >> In fairness, the US has its share/history of ex-pats.
>>
>> > > >> Debt has a greater earning potential than savings for financial
>> > > >> instiutions. Living beyond one's means is promoted in various ways.
>> > > >> America is the land of re-invention (social and geographic mobility).
>>
>> > > >> Am partial to savory myself but my grand-daughters requested pies so
>> > > >> pies they had. I do like something sweet maybe once a day.//My habits
>> > > >> were influenced by my early years at boarding school- Sacred Heart
>> > > >> Convent. Home was rather dramatic and chaotic while school and camp
>> > > >> developed other rhythms. Am quite different from my mother or daughter
>> > > >> in many ways but like many people I have tried out various "poses". Am
>> > > >> only human, afterall.
>>
>> > > >> On Jan 12, 7:54 am, archytas<nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > >>> When I think about a technology solution I'm not much concerned with
>> > > >>> the hardware and software. Most people who drive have very little
>> > > >>> clue how vehicles work and even less about how they are made. What
>> > > >>> I've been pondering for a long time is whether we can do something
>> > > >>> similar for argument and fashion something we can 'drive'. The
>> > > >>> spreadsheet is a bit of an example, along with databases. People get
>> > > >>> fixated on numbers and techie stuff - and probably with the cruelty of
>> > > >>> potential and real uses. There is an emancipatory potential. In
>> > > >>> essence this is as simple as, say, me wanting to make a blueberry pie,
>> > > >>> not knowing and being able to whistle-up help from rigs or the
>>
>> ...
>>
>> read more »
>
> --
>
>
>



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|_D Allan

Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..

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