Re: Mind's Eye Re: Newtown Killings

Russia, Mexico and Brazil all have much tougher gun control
legislation than the USA and higher murder rates. There are more guns
in people's homes in Switzerland than Germany - but the murder rate is
higher in Germany. Statistical comparison in areas like this usually
misses something important. I feel safer in the parts of the US I
visit than I do at home in the UK though I don't really know the real
comparative dangers. I felt safer carrying a gun as a cop but
probably wasn't.
I think the situation in the USA is an affront to all democrats
including Americans. My heart goes out to the bereaved and victims of
Newtown, but they are a small dot in world figures of squalor and our
non-democrat foreign policies. All I can see in any of the debate is
that we must be shying away from what really matters and typically are
powerless to do anything.

On Dec 31 2012, 5:40 am, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The problem with liberal justice is that the punishment does not fit
> the crime. I'm in favor of capital punishment- in fact, you'd be
> shocked at what I think those six rats in Delhi deserve- how about the
> olde English drawn and quartered? Many criminals look on jail time as
> free room and board and it is a very profitable enterprise. Happily
> some of these murderers have the decency to kill themselves often
> enough. What about the victims? And what about our youth that are
> getting killed or maimed in the pest holes of the world???
>
> On Dec 28, 10:24 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > There's something amiss with talking up gun control and yet
> > subsidising manufacture.  But this is typical of the area of the
> > debate.  The same people who sing from the free trade hymn sheet pay
> > the subsidies.  Of course, putting a cop in every school (which is a
> > minimum of two with rotation) is an expense on every business.  I
> > don't know what the answers are.  Over the years I've found the same
> > stilted factionalism from issues like this to foreign policy or aid to
> > third world situations.  When argument doesn't work I favour looking
> > at practical examples (Australia in this case).  Almost needless to
> > say opinion is divided, though 85% of Aussies now support the new laws
> > and they haven't had a mass killing spree since the reforms (1996).
> > This suggests it could be worth a try, but frankly I don't have the
> > facts.  Others say neither Australia or the UK are any safer as a
> > result of our legislation.  Some even have it Newtown is a hoax
> > conspiracy to disarm Americans to ease a police state into being.
>
> > We lack informed analysis generally.  In some areas, like television
> > economics and university opportunities for our kids, I know enough to
> > know we are being lied to.  In others I'm just left wondering why
> > expert opinion just seems lacking.  I haven't even seen a sensible
> > presentation of global warming issues.  In place of facts we get
> > factional twits rationalising everything to daft ideologies as though
> > this is balanced reporting.
>
> > On 28 Dec, 20:29, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I actually do understand Molly,,,  it is being caught between a rock
> > > and a hard spot,,   due to the large amount of wackos out there with
> > > excessive amounts of weapons  there is probably little choice left..
> > > with all the fear mongering   that is showing up on television ..   I
> > > am a us citizen living abroad.. and they are scaring the hell out of
> > > me..
>
> > > that is probably the greatest reason for taxation of each fire arm
> > > annually it will allow some actual and realistic control and locate
> > > some of the more sick gun maniacs
> > > Allan
>
> > > On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 7:02 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > I much prefer the answer of the institution having armed security on
> > > > staff  (we will all pay with increased costs at some point) then
> > > > allowing private citizens to carry weapons into the facilities.  There
> > > > are places that need to be zones that do not apply to right to carry
> > > > laws, schools, hospitals, stadiums etc.  I imagine that the percentage
> > > > of US schools having armed security will go up next year from the
> > > > current 30% in response.  The problem of wacko access to guns is the
> > > > sensitive area, where laws restricting folks with a history of mental
> > > > illness might prevent those who need it from getting treatment (or
> > > > treatment for children) because they are afraid of government
> > > > scrutiny.
>
> > > > On Dec 28, 12:10 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> I know defense contracting is very big manufacturing and entire
> > > >> regions depend on it ..Then you come up against minor things that the
> > > >> christian foundation is built on... there is one law dating back to
> > > >> ancient times simply put Is "Thou shall not commit murder."   Just a
> > > >> small problem spiritually ...  how can you justify the 200,000 people
> > > >> murdered by american weapons and bombs dropped recently in Iraq.. were
> > > >> american made..
>
> > > >> The problem is not in the weapons it lies in balance ..  fortunately
> > > >> each soul is responsible only for its own actions and decisions..   I
> > > >> have trouble justifying any war or the intentional taking of another
> > > >> life much less   thousands of them..
>
> > > >> I see NRA wants to put one armed policeman in each school   is the NRA
> > > >> paying for this solution...  and I can predict it will not work simply
> > > >> because it has not worked in the passed ..  their next solution will
> > > >> be prison camps   not seats of learning.
>
> > > >> Sorry  somethings just piss me off..
> > > >> Allan
>
> > > >> On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> > Currently in the US there is a much needed resurgence in manufacturing that
> > > >> > all states are subsidizing to get their jobs numbers up.  this is no
> > > >> > different than any other type of manufacturing subsidy, I suspect, although
> > > >> > the use of the product is a sensitive issue.  Here in Michigan, defense
> > > >> > manufacturing is one of the largest sectors, providing a good portion of the
> > > >> > jobs in the southeastern area.  Many would argue that with the world economy
> > > >> > teetering, conditions to manufacturing incentives would be problematic and
> > > >> > stifle job growth.  State tax breaks for movie production companies has come
> > > >> > under scrutiny lately, as they were extended to boost local economies when
> > > >> > production houses were build and the movies were shot locally.
>
> > > >> > Can't say that I disagree with the gun maker tax credit opinion above, but
> > > >> > don't you think they would just move their manufacturing to say - China?
>
> > > >> > It is a complicated issue, that's for sure.  I marvel at our ability to
> > > >> > become distracted with ancillary issues.  Are manufacturing tax credits
> > > >> > really the reason wackos wipe out children?
>
> > > >> > On Thursday, December 27, 2012 7:59:55 PM UTC-5, archytas wrote:
>
> > > >> >> Gun production is state funded.  Smith & Wesson, one of the largest
> > > >> >> gun makers in the country, is headquartered in Springfield, MA.
> > > >> >> According to the company's 2012 annual investment report to the SEC
> > > >> >> (10-k), Smith & Wesson received a large multi-million dollar tax
> > > >> >> credit from the state that started in 2010 and will continue until
> > > >> >> 2017. This tax credit, of $6.0 million, brought a maximum of 225 jobs
> > > >> >> to the state, or roughly twenty seven thousand dollars of taxpayer
> > > >> >> money per job, and was awarded by an obscure committee called "the
> > > >> >> Massachusetts Economic Assistance Coordinating Council." That amount
> > > >> >> works out to a little less than $1 per person in Massachusetts, money
> > > >> >> that goes straight to Smith & Wesson's bottom line. Most Massachusetts
> > > >> >> residents don't know their legislators and Governor have donated a
> > > >> >> dollar in their name to Smith & Wesson through job creation tax
> > > >> >> credits. Regardless of their views on gun control, I'm guessing
> > > >> >> Massachusetts taxpayers probably don't favor subsidization of the
> > > >> >> industry at such a rich rate.
>
> > > >> >> At the same time as Smith & Wesson receives such bounty from the
> > > >> >> state, the gunmaker has given over $1 million to the National Rifle
> > > >> >> Association (NRA), the biggest lobbying group for guns. This means
> > > >> >> that the state of Massachusetts, while considering further regulations
> > > >> >> on gun purchases, is at the same time indirectly funding the gun
> > > >> >> lobby. To actually reduce the number of guns on the streets, Linsky,
> > > >> >> and many of our state and Federal officials, could start by ending the
> > > >> >> subsidization of gun makers through tax credits and security funds.
> > > >> >> New Hampshire lost the jobs 'created' in MA.
>
> > > >> >> On 25 Dec, 22:31, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> >> > I haven't got a figure on the externalities of gun ownership - but car
> > > >> >> > ownership was recently estimated to cost each individual in the UK
> > > >> >> > £850 a year - £48 billion.  About £38 billion is generated in taxes.
> > > >> >> > The underlying issue may well be that the way we let cost drive
> > > >> >> > efficiency generally is probably wrong now and we need a better
> > > >> >> > resource utilisation model.  A big question is whether we trust our
> > > >> >> > police and other authorities to keep us safe.  Here, people who have
> > > >> >> > not needed dealings with the authorities in such circumstances feel
> > > >> >> > content - those who have had dealings are generally worried they don't
> > > >> >> > do a good job.  Holding guns may give us a false sense of security in
> > > >> >> > terms of thinking we can look after ourselves when the authorities
> > > >> >> > can't.  We may not really understand what the threat is.
>
> > > >> >> > I don't know what the full debate on gun ownership is.  I can think of
> > > >> >> > an economic analogy - there is a big claim at the moment that we are
> > > >> >> > bankrupting our children through government debt.  This isn't true,
> > > >> >> > though one can make the argument sound convincing by leaving most of
> > > >> >> > what matters out of it.  We are stuck in something similar on gun
> > > >> >> > control.
>
> > > >> >> > At the heart of these problems is reliable threat identification and
> > > >> >> > the ability to deal with it with appropriate resources.  We might
> > > >> >> > start by looking at what we know about sociopaths - the reality is
> > > >> >> > almost completely at odds with reporting.  My guess this is only the
> > > >> >> > first thing on a list of 20 plus.  The next might
>
> ...
>
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