Re: Mind's Eye Re: Good and bad

As if socialism is not also an accounting system!!! It is possible for
capitalism to be compassionate and altruistic versus enforcement with
hidden motives.//We have not escaped the past either. You may still be
eating grass porridge as oatmeal. :-)

On Jan 31, 7:30 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I like the divine right analogy rigs.  I don't favour capitalism for
> much the same reason.  Much discussion of right and wrong is stuck in
> a past we need to escape.  Origin is difficult.  Born a Scot I might
> revere our heritage - but 3000 years ago 'we' were likely German
> farmers eating 'grass porridge'.  Capitalism broke up much of
> feudalism, but I suspect it was no more than a revision of Domesday
> Book accounting and labour exploitation.  Much of what actually goes
> on is not capitalism but the establishment of rents through financial
> manipulations - essentially a control fraud by the rentier-class.
> We've been had on a butty - and need more modern argument based on
> what we know, facts shared in a common language.
> There is a literature suggesting our environmental knowledge is now
> important in moral decision-making   I think we have missed a lot
> before this.  Current technology is good enough for us to create self-
> sustaining communities and give up on empire.  We need to re-evaluate
> our morality against this.  I don't see this leading to socialism and
> any aim seems to me to be about considerably more freedom - from such
> things as war, work ethics formed in times of shortage and need for
> hard labour and so on.  The Soviet empire was much like the Tsars it
> replaced - we used to call the KGB 'Checkists' after the Tsar's secret
> police.
> I suspect capitalism - unless used as a pejorative - is little more
> than an accounting system.  The problem lies in its corruption.
> People cheat and cheats like crimogenic systems that allow work in the
> dark.  The umpire in cricket is now redundant - machines are better.
> We could have had a machine accounting system on a global basis by now
> - instead machines play a bigger role in cheating.  Capitalism with
> fair accounting presents few problems except for losers in the
> competition.  In sport we have competitions that allow losers first
> draft picks and our course there is no competition if one eradicates
> the competition.  Wigan's dominance of the Rugby League was truly
> horrible - it was hard t turn up to watch knowing every other team
> would lose.
> The pathway to Hell is lined with good intentions Gabby - we are
> scared of change.  Does anyone now believe that rule by the Guardians
> of future socialist paradise can be established to wither away?    Or
> that the rentiers will wither away as Keynes hoped?  And are such
> matters not the same coin, merely opposite sides?  Capitalism has run
> up a lot of debt - are we so sure of it we can do away with time-
> honoured debt jubilee?  Would it not make more sense to give away what
> we have built already to the people, have something of a leveling and
> start again with a new focus on sustainability?
> The genuine capitalist firm treats finance as a cost - it is difficult
> to see from this how the vast transactions of financial services are
> not parasitic on such firms and all of us.  The bubbles created cause
> much misery and form part of a vast Ponzi scheme we have no need of.
> Beyond this, capitalism is really assumed to be a dirty game of beggar
> thy neighbour we are ahead in and need to stay ahead in or we'll lose
> military edge (and so on).  We end up justifying doing bad things for
> the greater end and rationalising this as moral.
>
> On Jan 31, 9:14 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > The way you contrast socialism and capitalism is like contrasting
> > creationism versus evolutionism. And by the natural law that the fittest
> > will survive you are right to have decided for the evolutionary view.
>
> > I don't think - and the exchange in this group has helped me a lot to see
> > this clearer - we should forget how tempting the search for the right
> > answers is.
>
> > 2013/1/31 rigs <rigs...@gmail.com>
>
> > > I am a fan of capitalism. I consider Marxism and Fascism as an
> > > extension of socialism which is an extension of divine rights,etc.,
> > > i.e. theft, redistribution of another's wealth and labor, weakening of
> > > the body politic (a form of serfdom) which turns governments into
> > > bloodsuckers via taxes and debt.//Do you think economics is a valid
> > > science? Why, when it has flopped so many times.//We need production
> > > and labor plus consumption so there is a need for immigrants into
> > > white industrial countries to make up for the decline of white births
> > > (55 million abortions plus birth control). But I wonder if illegals
> > > will pay back taxes and bother to learn English. It might go smoother
> > > if we learn Spanish and Europe learn Arabic.//Family can also hurt
> > > people but sometimes that hurt teaches valuable lessons. It is easier
> > > to leave some people and events to Heaven though it would probably
> > > spell the end of the legal profession.
>
> > > On Jan 30, 4:56 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > I'm not sure the audience is as wide as your estimate rigs.
> > > > Technically I am hospitable to any theoretical view from marxism to
> > > > fascism - though I tend to dislike theoretical views - and hospitable
> > > > to Islamic theory/s in business analysis - and to guests in my
> > > > classrooms from all backgrounds.  This is easy enough - as easy as
> > > > offering to put you up if you were travelling in the UK.  The
> > > > difficult bit is in reciprocity - here we might think of the Maussian
> > > > concept of the gift and many examples in 'stoneage economics' - what
> > > > is expect of a guest in return.  One gives freely - a few nights stay
> > > > is not given for a return of a few nights stay and so on - yet one
> > > > does not generally keep giving to inhospitable guests.  One can
> > > > discuss racism yet not tolerate racists - but to brand people
> > > > concerned their opportunities for homes and work are disappearing in
> > > > immigration flows as racist who raise these issues with some hatred on
> > > > the people taking them is also wrong (particularly if done by
> > > > politically correct idiots whose homes and jobs are not under such
> > > > threat).  Hospitality is sometimes easy, sometimes very hard work, can
> > > > be a treat or pain - but is always already reciprocal in intent even
> > > > if no commodity exchange is meant.  I prefer to be hospitable to you
> > > > rigs than tolerant - tolerance has pratronising aspects - and this is
> > > > my general approach to things intellectual.  It's easy with you as I
> > > > like what I hear.  I have lost hospitality to politics.  Left to typo
> > > > as it hits the meaning better than the word I intended!
>
> > > > People hurt us Andrew.  We hurt them.  Some is intentional some not.
> > > > Gossip is often vicious from the pub to academic cloister.
> > > > Transactional analysis isn't a bad place to look at how rigs'
> > > > "balanced score card" builds up in personal relationships - Eric
> > > > Berne's 'Games People Play' is still. the best book.  Only friends can
> > > > generally hurt us as we come to expect better from them, value them
> > > > and so on.  Friendship is easily mimicked and sometimes that small
> > > > thing you mention may reveal the charade.  Sometimes we take things
> > > > too hard and should just let an incident wash away.  This can be
> > > > particularly hard if you've been collecting brown stamps (been shit
> > > > on) in too many recent encounters.  I used to go to the pub every
> > > > Friday to get rid of my collection - but this habit itself became a
> > > > brown stamp.  I'm not religious but there's lots in forgiveness and
> > > > 'there but for the grace of god go I'.
>
> > > > On 29 Jan, 19:11, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Please define what you mean by "hospitality"- of the individual, the
> > > > > group, nations. Thanks. :-)
>
> > > > > On Jan 29, 5:22 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > I think the first consideration is hospitality rigs.
>
> > > > > > On Jan 29, 12:10 am, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > At least some had good intentions re empires- maybe that should be
> > > > > > > noted. And I believe in good intentions, myself- don't you? It's
> > > > > > > likely a project for those two columCouldns of thinking and
> > > sorting.
>
> > > > > > > On Jan 28, 6:41 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > Good question Andrew - though we could wonder why most people
> > > have
> > > > > > > > rosy views of the US and British empires, pretty much against
> > > the real
> > > > > > > > history.
>
> > > > > > > > On Jan 28, 11:19 am, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > Try being Pollyanna for a day and see how far you get. Or Dr.
> > > Pangloss
> > > > > > > > > ("Candide")
>
> > > > > > > > > On Jan 28, 5:11 am, andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > Why do so many of us remember negative feelings easier than
> > > positive ones.
> > > > > > > > > > Pain over pleasure. Bad news over good news. Why does "bad"
> > > overshadow
> > > > > > > > > > "good", immorality over morality, despair over hope,
> > > pessimism over
> > > > > > > > > > optimism. Why does hate appear to be more powerful than
> > > love? Why is greed
> > > > > > > > > > louder than generosity. Why is destruction of war so much
> > > faster than the
> > > > > > > > > > building power of peace. Why can one little lie destroy a
> > > lifetime of
> > > > > > > > > > trust. Why are lies more influential than truth. It all
> > > seems so one sided.
> > > > > > > > > > Why is that?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
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