Re: Mind's Eye Selfishness, greed and morality

You haven't got the science right Andrew - but no matter - the
argument from a science fiction scenario is valid. Selfishness is a
complex and to an extent it and altruism seem to be about gene
survival - but will this remain true if biological intelligence is
coming to and end? Rigs provides a twist that is important and men
may not understand as directly as a woman who has been pregnant.
Hobbes talked of a war of all against all - hence the need to
surrender to an absolute monarch - though he meant 'a body approved by
the people' - to protect us from selfish behaviour. In my view this
leaves us with questions about leadership and how much we can trust it
not to be selfish.

On Feb 14, 10:40 pm, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It's balance. Like "keep a little kid in your Id".
>
> On Feb 14, 8:21 am, andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I was thinking about "The purpose" discussion and got to telling myself
> > that everything has a good and a bad side to it  The bad sides to
> > selfishness and greed are easy to see. What about the good sides of these
> > otherwise bad behaviors. I like to think that unless you help yourself, you
> > can not for long help others, so selfisness is vital for doing good. As
> > well geed for praise and recognition and a feeling of acomplishment and a
> > bit of heath pride are all good and beautiful faces of otherwise not so
> > nice  behaviors. Laziness also has a good side that is very easy to argue.
> > The same goes with seeing the bad side of traits that are normally seen as
> > good.
>
> > On Thursday, February 14, 2013 2:32:15 PM UTC+1, rigs wrote:
>
> > > It does seem that living things will fill a vacuum- whether weeds or
> > > opportunists and the basis would be predator/prey behaviors that may
> > > have a genetic component- maybe within our ancient reptile brain re
> > > humans.
>
> > > On Feb 13, 12:23 pm, andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > That is what "science fiction" is all about. But just to make it more
> > > > palatable to you, do you think that behaviors such as selfishness, greed
> > > > and morality have genetic components?
>
> > > > On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 5:22:30 PM UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>
> > > > > You are discussing fiction as if it were science, Andrew. I find it
> > > > > unpalatable.
>
> > > > > On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 3:35 PM, andrew vecsey <andrew...@gmail.com<javascript:>>
>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > The source is from a science fiction "A Short History of a Long
> > > Future"
> > > > > that
> > > > > > I wrote about the future.
>
> > > > > > On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 9:45:47 AM UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>
> > > > > >> How authentic is your source , Andrew ?
>
> > > > > >> On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 11:44 PM, andrew vecsey <
> > > andrew...@gmail.com>
> > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > >> > I would like to start a discussion about selfishness, greed and
> > > > > >> > morality.
>
> > > > > >> > The following YouTube video addresses these topics.
>
> > > > > >> > See YouTube video "5b Humans, computers and emotion genes and
> > > > > >> > algorithms"
> > > > > >> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHW5oEplhKE
>
> > > > > >> > The relevant text of the video is copied below.
>
> > > > > >> > The selfish and greedy genes
>
> > > > > >> > In all animals, including man, the selfish gene regulated this
> > > bond
> > > > > >> > (that
> > > > > >> > they had with their own children that animals and robots lacked).
> > > It
> > > > > >> > also
> > > > > >> > regulated the sexual drive to reproduce. Man had an additional
> > > gene
> > > > > that
> > > > > >> > no
> > > > > >> > plant or other animals had called the greedy gene. Many
> > > experiments
> > > > > were
> > > > > >> > made concerning these genes. The selfish gene regulating the
> > > drive to
> > > > > >> > reproduce was greatly studied because it was believed that it was
> > > > > >> > related to
> > > > > >> > the greedy gene. The greedy gene found only in man's genome was
> > > the
> > > > > most
> > > > > >> > studied and understood gene in nature's genome.
>
> > > > > >> > Transplanting the greedy gene into animals or plants made them
> > > > > vicious
> > > > > >> > and
> > > > > >> > rabid attacking their own kind and killing them. Taking the
> > > greedy
> > > > > gene
> > > > > >> > out
> > > > > >> > of man made him infertile like a donkey lacking all egg or sperm
> > > > > >> > production.
> > > > > >> > With the absence of the greedy gene, the selfish gene was
> > > > > irreversibly
> > > > > >> > turned off . Unfortunately it also made man extremely lethargic
> > > and
> > > > > >> > unmotivated.
>
> > > > > >> > Man, with his greedy gene removed, grew and developed into an
> > > > > >> > unproductive
> > > > > >> > adult preferring to do nothing. He didn't play, sing, talk, read,
> > > > > write,
> > > > > >> > laugh, or cry very much. Throughout his boring life he was never
> > > > > >> > interested
> > > > > >> > in socializing, sex, and nor was any one interested in him. So he
> > > was
> > > > > >> > left
> > > > > >> > alone, like a solitary monk, as he wished to be left. He never
> > > grew
> > > > > up
> > > > > >> > and
> > > > > >> > his emotions never fully developed. He was similar to a sedated
> > > > > >> > autistic. He
> > > > > >> > was like a tired adult watching TV after work.
>
> > > > > >> > Understandably no one wanted or needed selfish and greedy
> > > machines.
> > > > > In
> > > > > >> > laboratories studying genes, machines were given the selfish and
> > > > > greedy
> > > > > >> > algorithms in all combinations.
>
> > > > > >> > It was found that machines with selfish algorithms were very
> > > > > dangerously
> > > > > >> > unreliable. They were calculatingly deceptive as they were very
> > > good
> > > > > at
> > > > > >> > lying.  Machines with the greedy algorithm were very dangerous.
> > > They
> > > > > >> > couldn't work well with machines or with people. If they were
> > > > > programmed
> > > > > >> > with any type of emotion algorithm they would exaggerate their
> > > > > emotions
> > > > > >> > to
> > > > > >> > their allowable thresholds, to the point of aggression, claiming
> > > it
> > > > > was
> > > > > >> > for
> > > > > >> > the sake of love. When they reached a point of torture and
> > > cruelty
> > > > > they
> > > > > >> > claimed it was necessary for data collection and information
> > > analysis
> > > > > -
> > > > > >> > for
> > > > > >> > the sake of knowledge. Animals with added greedy genes showed
> > > signs
> > > > > of
> > > > > >> > cruelty that they otherwise never showed.
>
> > > > > >> > Experimentation proved that in every animal except man, the
> > > greedy
> > > > > gene
> > > > > >> > eventually lead to self annihilation. Scientists theorized that
> > > there
> > > > > >> > must
> > > > > >> > be a missing invisible gene to mediate and regulate the greedy
> > > gene
> > > > > in
> > > > > >> > man.
> > > > > >> > They called it the morality gene. Cruelty in man seemed to imply
> > > an
> > > > > >> > absence
> > > > > >> > of the morality gene.
>
> > > > > >> > Morality gene
>
> > > > > >> > Scientists wrote morality algorithms for machines, and this
> > > caused
> > > > > >> > machines
> > > > > >> > to eventually grind to a halt. Morality algorithms were seen to
> > > drain
> > > > > >> > the
> > > > > >> > computer's computing powers too much and too fast. Increased
> > > > > computing
> > > > > >> > spent
> > > > > >> > in analyzing morality issues caused increased inefficiencies that
> > > > > >> > eventually
> > > > > >> > resulted in reboots.
>
> > > > > >> > It was as if the computer was overwhelmed and overloaded by
> > > shame.
>
> > > > > >> > --
>
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