Re: Mind's Eye What to do about the rich?

I would have to say that all RC property and wealth "belonged" to
Rome, in a sense.//What about the Armada victory? A navy has to start
somewhere, afterall. :-)//Yes- I took away some thoughts to savor and
save after the Tudor classes. The prof had attended Oxford and had
delightful asides. I called him about a paper and lo and behold he
lived in one of my childhood homes! He invited me to go through but I
declined- it would have disturbed my memories, perhaps. He retired a
few years ago.// Money just replaced lineage and land...more portable.
But it cannot replace education and other qualities.//I read you last
night and felt blue afterwards- reminded me of Anthony Burgess-
"Nothing Like the Sun"- in its energy. I often pray for you and
others. But I loved Chaucer (read in Middle English) and Milton and
only audited Shakespeare as a course or picked up works in other
courses. I have some favorites of Yeats and read up on Maud Gonne who
intrigued me.//

On Mar 30, 1:28 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm not sure the Papacy ever owned the dissolved monasteries rigs,
> though the process did fund about 30 ships.  A hundred years later we
> were floating joint stock companies to attack Spain - a failed Drake-
> Norris expedition being the first (£80K only returning £30K in
> plunder).  The Royal Navy comes much later with the Act of Union
> (1707) and it's around then money was raised by the Bank of England.
> I would have fancied a maritime Robin Hood raid on the Vatican myself.
> I don't see this rich thing as about class - it's more to do with
> social structuring through 'money as power' - as a famous poem stated,
> there's no point in changing the rulers.
>  THE GREAT DAY (W.B. Yeats in Montague 1974:239)
>
> Hurrah for revolution and more cannon-shot!
> A beggar on horseback lashes a beggar on foot.
> Hurrah for revolution and cannon come again!
> The beggars have changed places, but the lash goes on.
>
> Not only do we have to get rid of the rich, we need to ensure no new
> group forms - this was the idea of classical economics - to remove the
> drain of economic rents on production.  All the current fuss is
> because we failed to do this - nearly all the complaints about welfare
> drains to the poor and so on are irrelevant.  The welfare queens are
> the banks.
>
> The obvious thing is that we are being told, after massive increases
> in technology and productivity, we are worse off.  On preference I'd
> want no part in the idiot system but it's hard to keep wolves from the
> door without taking the establishment mark - unless you luck in to
> something.  Tudor history help much when you worked at the S & L rigs?
> (in the same way my quantum chemistry didn't when teaching bankers) -
> I have a feeling we may discover how useless the banksters have really
> been this year.
>
> On 29 Mar, 21:23, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I also remember how the german currency went to worthless also.. I am
> > thinking about what the man said abou the fiction of currency
>
> > On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 4:54 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Spot on on Lagarde rigs.  Her flat was raided in a criminal enquiry.
> > >  She may have had a role in a dodgy French arms' deal with Pakistan
> > > where bribes were kicked back to fund the Franco-GOP candidate in a
> > > presidential election.  I can remember playing musical chairs as a kid
> > > - I liked the running about and bumping into girls (this was the other
> > > way round) but had no clue the idea was not to be left standing,
> > > wondering why deviant adults kept stealing the chairs.  I submit the
> > > long adult version with child replaced by gawping scientist.
>
> > > It is impossible to apply hard science to these issues. I do sometimes
> > > try to think as a scientist without knowledge of economics – difficult
> > > as I teach the subject in business context. I always find, in this
> > > thought experiment, that I just would not start with concepts from
> > > economics. A key finding in 'anthropological archaeology' is that the
> > > lives of a certain class of people got worse with our turn to
> > > agriculture – something we might call 'broken back syndrome amongst
> > > the sod turners'. A book of examples later, I conclude the problem
> > > with real-world economics – the theories-in-action as opposed to
> > > espoused – is that it has no way of fairly organising work and reward
> > > against such ideals we might cherish like real democracy and proper
> > > guardianship of the planet. This no doubt looks like naive thinking. I
> > > then find myself thinking about how we organise such matters as 'a
> > > trip to Mars' (Newton, Einstein, the 3-body problem, moving space and
> > > down to stuff like the crew having to line (with proper hygiene) the
> > > craft with their excrement to protect against 'space weather'. Lots of
> > > other complex systems flow – the arms' race of co-evolution, combating
> > > Lyme's disease, parasitism as the most common lifestyle – and I find
> > > myself questioning why I an feel some much more competent as a
> > > scientist than economist or increasingly disaffected cog in the
> > > political machine.
> > > Popper once pointed out that Freud and Marx could not be scientific
> > > because if you went against the theories you were immediately in
> > > denial or false-consciousness. As we repeatedly see "economics"
> > > destroy the potential of most ordinary lives (and those of the few
> > > through hedonism in a libidinal economy) we are told it is because we
> > > just won't engage in real free markets – the neoclassic form of the
> > > denial-false-consciousness routine.
> > > I'm less inclined to worry who is next to go under as a country in the
> > > great depression (I guess Luxembourg, Switzerland, UK – though all
> > > bets are off if the USD goes down) – but on how and why we are in
> > > thrall to a mad control fraud that keeps on failing. Invited on a
> > > space ship to Mars built by economists I would simply wish the crew
> > > godspeed and utter a silent atheist prayer, noting that oars are an
> > > unlikely propulsion system. If the crew were Critical Theorists I'd
> > > want to save, I'd be happy in the thought none of them could row.
> > > Deep down we seem scared of the idea of a world of people with enough
> > > "money and security" to be able to tell power they will only work for
> > > "things and a quality of life" they want. I have instant reservations
> > > about this state myself as a manager and through experience of free-
> > > loading and the dire trivia most people "want" – from plastic crap,
> > > neat mobile phones to Saudi princes raiding Syrian refugee camps for
> > > wives. Nonetheless, with much of 'Robot Heaven' with us in principle
> > > and some practice, the lack of modern thought experiments (such as
> > > what place Calvinist work ethic would have in 100% Robot Heaven – how
> > > could we morally keep people poor when machines do all the work etc?)
> > > and repeated fetish concerns with homilies from the 18th century
> > > leaves me cold.
>
> > > The current model seems no better than handing over bags of electronic
> > > cash to people who trouser it and at most engage in acts of charity
> > > similar to pouring slops over a medieval monastery wall. In the UK we
> > > have a Chancellor so smart he has just created a British Fanny Mae/
> > > Freddy Mac! As one country after another faces becoming Cyprus (by the
> > > end of next week we will be discovering we don't know the half of that
> > > – note three old-fogey judges are already rostered for the cover-up)
> > > we have no politics of lancing the banking boil generally and
> > > production-based (responsible type) schemes for people to work their
> > > way out of the mess without seeing the toil go to paying off bank
> > > debts.
>
> > > I agree with Allan that all this is really about the rich stealing.
> > >  What we lack is a conception of a fairer society that makes sense of
> > > what people would be in it.  I share rigs' concerns with the 'ash-grey
> > > uniform of equality' and big government, but we can at least dream up
> > > something in which this would not come about.  "They" certainly seem
> > > to be putting the wind up us - making us feel money in the bank may as
> > > well be hidden about the house - yet somewhere we seem to have
> > > forgotten how quickly economies can recover as Germany and Japan did
> > > after WW2.
>
> > > On 29 Mar, 14:39, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > henry the 8th was all about divorce..    So it is okay to steal what is
> > > > freely given to the church and use it to line you pockets or royal
> > > > treasury..   what you are saying is it is okay to steal as long as you
> > > can
> > > > blame others for your wrong doing..  there is a great litany of excuses
> > > the
> > > > rich use for stealing ...   wonder if these excuses work with God as you
> > > > understand him..
>
> > > > On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 1:04 PM, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > The wealth and lands of the Church were part of papal wealth. The
> > > > > royal treasury was empty. Yes- the British navy took off under the
> > > > > Tudors. The divorces came later along with his "solutions". (I did
> > > > > take a 2 quarter course in Tudor history but request some slack for
> > > > > facts.) One could also point to the later Enclosure act that ended the
> > > > > common lands and set up the British aristocracy leading to slum-cities
> > > > > and the ills of the Industrial Revolution. It's musical chairs. The
> > > > > greedy still create their own enviornment but change the nouns and
> > > > > verbs - they still need power to attain their ends: politics or wars.
>
> > > > > On Mar 29, 3:30 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > Rigsy  Henry the 8th got his navy on the backs of the poor.. not the
> > > > > > Papacy .. all he did was destroy a bunch of monasteries.. but there
> > > > > > was never enough money there to fiance his navy.. get real..  stole
> > > > > > from church because they would not let him have his way with
> > > > > > divorces..  how many did he go through either by divorce or killing
> > > > > > them.. one thing for sure he is no hero..  more of a cowering thief.
>
> > > > > > the greedy created their own environmental and fears and then created
> > > > > > and taught people to fulfill their fears  so they can scream they are
> > > > > > right and point fingers.. all signs  of the cult of the golden calf.
>
> > > > > > On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 2:04 AM, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > It's not a myth- it's a fact. One you don't like along with
> > > zillions
> > > > > > > of others. And the rich do create opportunities for others. There
> > > are
> > > > > > > misers, of course, but the poor can also be miserly. Let's get our
> > > > > > > moral judgements on a realistic plane as human nature has its good
> > > and
> > > > > > > bad points in all economic
>
> ...
>
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>
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