Re: Mind's Eye Re: Consciousness

Science is largely about observation in the first place.  These days there is little we allow as 'observation language' per se.  Even being bilingual affects consciousness (many studies).  What would most of us make of the 'raw data' of the dark flow?  Our consciousness lacks the 'training' to 'see' it as a flow beyond light speed or warp signatures or to build Hubble.

Take the example of the question 'why does it go dark at night'?  Gabby is probably thinking what the Sun god going to sleep has got to do with consciousness, while most is us are conscious of the explanation that the Earth spins on its axis and we are turned away from our sun at night.  I'm only ribbing Gabbs, of course, unless I have her consciousness wrong.  We make guesses about each other.  I'd guess most people in ME don't know what other theory arises in physics from it going dark at night.  You are no doubt all conscious of the basic theory I allude to.

I'm only guessing, but I think most here won't know that it going dark at night leads to Olbers' Paradox, which leads to big bang theory.  I'll explain if anyone asks.

I'm also guessing you can all google Olbers' Paradox.  I have taught kids who can't do that.  We make a lot of guesses about the consciousness of others and what they may have in them.  The idea that consciousness is inevitably perspectival is a non-starter for me.  We'd realise this if we shared more.

On Sunday, February 1, 2015 at 8:37:17 AM UTC, archytas wrote:

What a lovely way to think of it Sue.  The boys (cat is female - not all sexist here!) are due for the park again in about an hour.  Maxwell seems to think my dog-walking coat has consciousness, given what he tries to do with it!  He gets an extra short walk (Zak is old and a retired Guide Dog) we call his paper-round, where he sniffs the local news.  I try and 'see' their world as they do in the park (which, incidentally is where the industrial revolution began).  They found a rabbit hole yesterday, but Gabby wasn't in, or at least the rabbits didn't answer their knocks.  All the better, they thought, as the breakfast sandwiches didn't go far enough as it was.  They left me the flask of coffee.

We need imagination and dreams.  At some point, one realises subjects like this have a vast literature almost no one reads.  I guess in, say, biology, I can give an account of how our grandparents' genes are mixed when our generation produces children.  I wouldn't be much impressed as a scientist with an account from a tribe with no concept of male parentage other than a 'ghost story' (father roles are taken my male uncles).  Yet surely science is only as small part of what we are conscious of.and what might be important.

Your 'children as teachers' has long interested me.  I took an interest in teenage biology because most undergraduate teaching is with them.  They don't even perceive the world like most adults' (quite literally in the scientific sense) and lots of brain connections are being burned in.  The dogs know far more about the park than I do and I let them teach me.  Why not, then, treat undergrads like dogs.  I know Gabbs will have a vision of me with a big stick and chocolate drop rewards, but, then, the world would not be so good without these reminders either.  My dogs chase sticks and don't get chocolate.  I'm just an old bumbler who keeps them safe from traffic and the cat.  I'm not sure teachers can do much more, or should.  One at least has to try and understand the consciousness of those one tries to teach, including such stuff as autism and dyslexia - and that most of the class would rather be dog walking or at a party - or in the case of one girl, tarot reading.  Her lecture on that was a riot and got far more discussion on personal development going than 'process journals'.  She pulled a first on that one, though no doubt Gabby would say I should have pulled in an expert consultant like her to assess the technicalities, rather than an amateur like me (which would have been very welcome).  Occasionally, it is a mistake to assume consciousness - I have had classes of apparently dead people - but usually there are minds that express themselves by doing such as taking a team with a video camera to make a promotional cd for a local gay rights' campaign.  They teach me by doing things I had no intention of teaching.

Trusting to the consciousness of others is tricky, and part, of course, of learning about consciousness itself for the non-solipsist or German "Crabby" - which my iconoclast Gabby isn't.  We often need a darker wit to remind us the pathway to the wrong place is often lined with good intentions.  Sometimes you have to come at difficult problems like learning and consciousness from the left field of a dog walk.  There is a certain duty in thinking the best of others, but it is still foolish to expect Maxwell to cross a road on his own.

On Sunday, February 1, 2015 at 3:00:03 AM UTC, Sue Linda wrote:

LOL  I so enjoyed the conversation Archytas.  Maybe it was the walk in
the park like the dogs.  Thank you for the interchange. you give me a
some thought to ponder.


On 1/31/15, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
> Delightful Sue.  It's dawn here, so I'm a few minutes away from dogs
> fussing about their walk.  Max will pounce on me as I reach for my boots
> and then insist on 'conversation' all the way to the park.  Then he will
> run off about a mile to the top of a hill, king of all he surveys.  We
> should be organising life for moments like this, but I fear we don't.  I
> think a lot of what is broken is business and why we engage with it.
>
> On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 6:51:34 AM UTC, Sue Linda wrote:
>>
>> Thank you Archytas for the welcome.  Indeed "How we achieve that seems
>> the difficulty."  In simple terms, it is a bowl of twisted spaghetti
>> noodles and difficult to sort threw.  Not impossible, but difficult as
>> one has to look at self and that is not pleasant many times.  I reason
>> from my own experience, that one does not take on that journey until
>> they reach a place of "brokenness" and actually reach out and ask that
>> power of life for help and guidance. In my own experience, that has
>> not been supplied by any man ruled spiritual belief system.  Such is
>> constructed by ego of each leader who expresses their own thoughts by
>> their own life experience and others agree and follow what such a
>> leader expresses.  Starting again the entire cycle of living life by
>> the group experience based on the reality on one or in some cases
>> several individuals.  It would reason then, that there is ONE being
>> needed and be far removed from human influence that would guide and
>> instruct for that individual as they need.  Each person being just a
>> part of a puzzle and only a piece of the puzzle, can not see the
>> completed picture.  I would then reason that then the ability to
>> become compassionate to all humans knowing we are all in the same
>> state and all are a part of the whole picture would only begin to show
>> a candle flicker of light to change. The possible beginning to such a
>> event could be reasoned as a "virus" if I may use that example.
>> Compassion, love, has a stronger influence on the elements of this
>> planet.  Such were the experiments of Dr. Masaru Emoto's effects of
>> positive emotions and negative emotions on enviroment including other
>> humans.  It could be a reason that to return good to evil was given
>> and as well, that there is no Law against love.
>>
>> On 1/31/15, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Welcome Sue.  Interesting points.  Have to agree your statement on the
>> > point of compassion.  How we achieve that seems the difficulty.  I often
>> >
>> > think we could live more as we organise school, though without some of
>> the
>> > overbearing teachers I remember and with better control of the bullies.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 6:22:15 AM UTC, Sue Linda wrote:
>> >>
>> >> consider  consciousness.  The endless pursuit of humanity all threw
>> >> history.  To find such, is a inner exploring of who resides inside the
>> >>
>> >> body
>> >> you call self.  There is no standard to  consciousness for the life of
>> >>
>> >> each
>> >> has experienced very different events in life that taught them to
>> perceive
>> >>
>> >> their own reality and truth by such.  It would seem to reason than that
>> >>
>> to
>> >>
>> >> actually find truth in  consciousness is to realize that in this school
>> >>
>> of
>> >>
>> >> life on this planet, is designed to teach each by experience.  Than in
>> >>
>> a
>> >> twist of learning this of self and that others are also no different
>> than
>> >>
>> >> you other than the experience, I would think that the only thing left
>> to
>> >> say is have compassion on all, for we do not create our own life until
>> >>
>> we
>> >>
>> >> realize that this is true.  I would also state, that once you come to a
>> >>
>> >> place of compassion for All humans, than the release of seeing
>> differences
>> >>
>> >> is dissolved.  Life then can begin for the first time as the self then
>> >>
>> >> would choose to live each day without remembrance to the past
>> experience.
>> >>
>> >>  Without past recall, then future projections are absent for there is
>> >> nothing that can be judged by past experience.   Consciousness then
>> would
>> >>
>> >> be a daily revealing met with a world of no expectation of evil or of
>> >> good.
>> >>  Like a child who just lives in the moment.
>> >>
>> >> On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 7:05:54 PM UTC-6, RP Singh wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Suppose there had been no consciousness and the entire world had been
>> >>>
>> >>> there but all unconscious , what would be the Truth? Just death ,
>> nothing
>> >>>
>> >>> else. Consciousness is what makes life , a proof that there is
>> something
>> >>>
>> >>> which exists , Existence itself and not death. Look at the stars , the
>> >>>
>> >>> solar system , if it had self-direction where would we be? It all
>> obeys
>> >>> laws and that is the reason for order in the universe and not chaos.
>> What
>> >>>
>> >>> would humanity have been if we were not bound by our nature , no laws
>> >>>
>> of
>> >>>
>> >>> biology , psychology , etc. , no predictability , no comfort that we
>> >>> would
>> >>> return to our homes at night ,no assurance that we would return home
>> from
>> >>>
>> >>> work . Unpredictability is still there but it is minor , mostly there
>> >>>
>> is
>> >>>
>> >>> satisfaction and assurance of well-being.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
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