On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 7:54 AM, rigsy03 <rigsy03@yahoo.com> wrote:
How so, elitist? Isn't economics a reflection of self and national
interest? Freedom is a broad term as I think there are mutiple sources
for which we owe gratitude. Sometimes trouble and hardship wind up
being "teachers". Or reversed mirrors. The trick is to survive to that
point of recognition.//I often use a set of scales (like Justice) when
I pray and when trouble or sorrow overwhelm, I place them on one scale
and put the blessings and gifts on another and they usually balance
out. But I have been a survivor type in a wealthy country basically at
peace- or distant wars- unlike many in this world- for that, what do
you suggest would correct the terrible inbalance? Maybe it does rest
in the Serenity Prayer- we change the things we can.
> stuff on OccupyX -http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/10/ows-guest-post-denver-police-u...
On Oct 30, 11:39 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry about the lapsed video link. They are around on the net. I
> suspect the machine is banking and war and we suppose it something
> other. I'm not sure we are free as rigsy says - rather just lucky to
> be free of interesting times. I was thinking of Camus watching some
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text ->
> High in the list of my values is the treatment of others (which in a
> sense is elitist) and I don't believe current economics provides
> much. It seems to me many have forgotten that their freedoms were won
> bu others,
>
> On Oct 30, 11:55 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Even God cannot change the past." Agathon (448 B.C.-400 B.C.)
>
> > We are eventually free to establish our own values and lifestyle- if
> > we are lucky- and it sounds as if you are one of the lucky ones as we
> > type on computers constructed via slave labor to communicate our
> > opinions and struggles.
>
> > Around the beginning of the 20th Century, manufacturers accepted the
> > idea of making products that would soon be obsolete and need to be
> > replaced rather than repaired which has resulted in a toss-away
> > consumer society that is drenched in wastefulness. I think the idea
> > was first promoted by advertisers who were eager for steady income.
> > Replacement has become a broader fact- from mates to warfare.
>
> > On Oct 29, 11:01 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I don't recall the exact quote from Camus, Neil, in his "Rebel"...
>
> > > We are living in times when the same usurpers, oligarchs, power
> > > brokers, Free Capitalists and State Capitalists... use values that
> > > appeal to people, take positions that make people feel good, espouse
> > > causes and show generosities... when all that is on their mind is how
> > > to extract more from the people, how to make laws more capital,
> > > priviledged and owner friendly ( yeah, the fkg Motor Act in India is
> > > still of colonial vantage, when the motors on the roads were owned
> > > mainly by the British... you don't need to commit any murders at all,
> > > just mow them on the road, and escape with at most as light a sentence
> > > as mere 2 years of simple imprisonment ! ), how to consolidate and
> > > cartelise the supply chain or distribution structures for essential
> > > commodities, so as to create scarcities and raise prices at will...
> > > control power... control money... control legislation... control
> > > supply and demand... control...
>
> > > As a result, people have come to believe that the 80% of the economy
> > > looped in to serve 20% of the population is alright, that millionaires
> > > constituting 50% of People's Representatives is alright, that there is
> > > something sacrosanct about property and shall-do-as-I-wish rights,
> > > that accepting money means that people have to surrender their freedom
> > > and needless dignity, that basketfuls of cake and food reject in waste
> > > bin from wealthy mansions is okay when thousands are hungry... and if
> > > you stand to question and protest over such gross social inequality,
> > > such political misrepresentation, such blatant economic inequity...
> > > you are actually shown the law, the law and order enforcement might,
> > > the feudal norms and ethics, and told "look at the others, how they
> > > are not about creating problems" !
>
> > > You then have only one option... which you will soon be advised even
> > > by your parents and well-wishers... to join them. After all, even you
> > > have it all... if you study and work hard, with dedication... et al.
>
> > > The fun starts, rather the mayhem, when you see no reason to join
> > > them, to have all that "they" have. At that stage you have already
> > > discovered the new paradigm for yourself. It happened with me in
> > > 1997... when I looked up to my boss' position and clearly saw that I
> > > didn't want it ! Lived hand to mouth for about 2 years... made demands
> > > on friends without a qualm... until the consulting work got
> > > acknowledged... and then I've practically retired for an otherwise
> > > very active life.
>
> > > On Oct 30, 4:32 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Sorry your video is currently not available.. will try later I did some
> > > > looking up to understand the raping of Nang I have actually known about for
> > > > a long time ,, seems even before the internet why I don't recall any more..
> > > > Maybe it is from the horrible abuse and treatment of the american Indian
> > > > by my own government. and other minorities..
>
> > > > I think people want to believe the soft sell packaged lies.. people
> > > > apparently prefer to live in fear and accept lies rather than face the
> > > > truth.. as for governments that color truth worse is it the USA or
> > > > Great Britain? Both Countries seem to bury their heads in the sand when it
> > > > comes to coloring their history. still am trying to figure out
> > > > the British empire.
>
> > > > Hopefully the Occupy Movement will have some effect positive I hope if the
> > > > one percent want to control the wealth and government they at least to
> > > > bear their fair share of the expenses based on percentage of ownership.
> > > > Allan
>
> > > > On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 7:51 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > The current crisis is not one of banking or economics, but something
> > > > > much more basic. One might say this is our attitude towards 'machines
> > > > > of loving grace'. In short, we live in the fantasy that "the machine"
> > > > > will put things right, returning to an equilibrium as our
> > > > > interventions are little more than 'of mice and men'. The real world
> > > > > of the environment and the exchange world of economics return to
> > > > > equilibrium after fluctuations. It's very tempting to believe this -
> > > > > one might see Gaia as a case in point - the planet and other species
> > > > > flourishing after we've crazed ourselves to extinction through
> > > > > consumption and wars.
>
> > > > > You can pick up the ideas of 'all watched over by machines of loving
> > > > > grace' here -
> > > > >http://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/video/2160186460/All-Watched-Over-By-M...
>
> > > > > A review with an economic twist can be found here -
> > > > >http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/10/the-natural-chaos-of-markets.html
>
> > > > > My own work has often focused on the difference between espoused
> > > > > theories and theories-in-action. In some subjects like chemistry the
> > > > > relationship between theory and practice is good - if you follow the
> > > > > rules and recipes you get what you intended and the explanations make
> > > > > sense if you study enough. There is a working core, you can trust or
> > > > > check the work of others and speculation can eventually be tested on
> > > > > what is not accepted as 'settled'. In the human sciences this is much
> > > > > more difficult, not least because we do not exclude much in human
> > > > > society that prevents science. Few of us have much aptitude for
> > > > > science, perhaps especially for its negation of ideology soaked up
> > > > > from community.
>
> > > > > I always noted as a teacher that I was more comfortable saying 'you
> > > > > just can't handle the maths' (unlikely for me as I'd teach people like
> > > > > that without the stuff), than in saying 'you just don't get argument
> > > > > because you can't let go of any prejudice'. Teaching people to think
> > > > > for themselves contains a paradox. One finds much one is expected to
> > > > > teach based on dross. I know of no country in which history is taught
> > > > > without gross ideological distortion. We hear the Japanese rip out
> > > > > pages in textbooks on the 'rape of Nanking' yet it's rare to find
> > > > > Brits who know much of our squalid imperialism and involvement in much
> > > > > similar. In the middle east you will find a more accurate picture of
> > > > > the Crusades than we get, but the Jihad that is the mirror image is
> > > > > revered.
>
> > > > > Most people like to imagine themselves as individual, but if we're
> > > > > honest we are subjects of machines of loving grace. One makes one's
> > > > > way in an economy (machine) on a planet (environmental machine). I
> > > > > think these are only "machines" because we don't examine them.
> > > > > Examination often ends in paradox - logical positivism eventually
> > > > > conceded its own quest to extirpate metaphysics was - oops -
> > > > > metaphysical. My own guess is that rigorous thinking seeks to
> > > > > discover and eliminate dross - this involves a great deal of courage
> > > > > in accepting you are likely made of same oneself!
>
> > > > > I'm a maverick systems theorist and conceive of our social-political
> > > > > arguments (and the systems themselves) as houses of cards. one looks
> > > > > for the soft spots that can bring the lot down or as places to put in
> > > > > effort to keep the ball rolling. No argument survives this process
> > > > > more than twenty seconds with such soft spots arising. Most don't
> > > > > have either the energy or tools to keep going and run to the 'bliss'
> > > > > of the machine (religion, patriotism, left and right etc.). We are
> > > > > thus robots of one 'machine' or another, not individuals, hardly
> > > > > people if we're not careful.
>
> > > > --
> > > > (
> > > > )
> > > > |_D Allan
>
> > > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.- Hide quoted text -
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
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