K Dick once wrote of a 'group of solipsists' who treated any not in
the group as objects of their own mind's creation. I've always
thought the aim of materialism is that point where it hardly matters,
so we can get on with being spiritual in leisure space created by
sharing what work needs doing. Look at the way we could ban Chazwin
and so on and you can see 'manners' at work in a corrosive way - they
never quite ban poverty do they?
On Nov 9, 8:02 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Maybe the worst prisons around like the ones use for gangs
> but a good idea..
>
> oddly though I think if I am right they will have a real surprise coming
> at their death especially when they find there is no wealth and the world
> they know disappears,, I know it sounds funny they will create their own
> hell far beyond what you and I can imagine,,
>
> If one is supposed to live a spiritual life.. how does a person justify a
> life of material gain at the expense of others?
> Allan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 12:01 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Many of my scientific colleagues believe the kind of bureaucrats we
> > have to suffer deserve long prison sentences - then we'll hang them!
>
> > On Nov 8, 8:55 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > to limits moneys access to politics is what is going to have to happen,,
> > > not allowing corporations involvement at all.. but like the problem will
> > > be greed and the need for secrecy. the politicians will not like having
> > > ever word recorded and every word said to them,, and extreme penalties
> > to
> > > violating the rules including prison time for all involved.. and loss of
> > > all money for family members and relatives especially if the source of
> > the
> > > money is the person violating the laws
>
> > > it will not be popular with the 1%
> > > Allan
>
> > > On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 2:11 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Point 11 has traditionally been the Marxist line. The modern ones
> > > > like David Harvey talk of 'surplus capital' chasing ever diminishing
> > > > rates of return. I see the problem as us not being able to get what
> > > > we sensibly want, like warm homes without vast energy bills and the
> > > > environmental knock on and meaningful engagement as the social animals
> > > > we are. One of the interesting things at the moment is that there are
> > > > similarities between the usual right wing hatred of taxation and the
> > > > extent to which we are all 'taxed' by the rich and their Monopoly
> > > > games with money - how much of our work is funneled away by financial
> > > > services that increasingly look like organised crime or so Bill Gates
> > > > can 'redistribute on our behalf'?
>
> > > > One question has to be the extent to which we may be understanding
> > > > what's been going on 'unconsciously' and may be able to respond at
> > > > that level. Every test we can do shows that people are not appraised
> > > > of the facts, but the danger with this is that we then treat everyone
> > > > as morons for not knowing. I have classes I can teach to pass maths
> > > > tests at the end of a day's teaching with some in them who can't
> > > > remember the basics the following day when I try to push on to what
> > > > matters. These same people are often pretty competent at actual tasks
> > > > involving the maths if I routinise the stuff into software choice.
> > > > One can do this with quite complex social reasoning - but 'who writes
> > > > the software' remains an issue. And at bottom Gabby isn't the problem
> > > > about trusting anyone to do the planning because we fear they will rip
> > > > us off or turn 'totalist'? And behind this another fear that we can't
> > > > do the planning ourselves without creating such monsters?
>
> > > > On Nov 7, 7:35 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Yep, that's where I see IT having accepted their position too.
> > > > > the following day
>
> > > > > On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 8:13 AM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > In point 11 *It *seems the corporations and the people who lead
> > them
> > > > are
> > > > > > already social paths
> > > > > > Allan
>
> > > > > > On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 7:11 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > > > >> What strikes me on public dialogue is that we get a lot of
> > opposing
> > > > > >> views put forward that are all based in ideology that can be
> > stripped
> > > > > >> so bare as to be embarrassing. This holds true for
> > political-economic
> > > > > >> stuff and many factual programmes on history -we still get 'Kings
> > and
> > > > > >> Queens' and battles with little focus on how what democracy we
> > have
> > > > > >> came about - amazingly,given much focus on the rich, we get little
> > > > > >> idea of how wealth is acquired and distributed. Moral discussion
> > > > > >> rarely gets in deep and there is massive bias towards received
> > wisdom
> > > > > >> and language. Journalism is stuck in value from Victorian
> > America on
> > > > > >> 'objectivity' - frankly worlds away from what can be justified in
> > > > > >> critical thought. In all their 'balance' they have failed to
> > report on
> > > > > >> debt and wage decimation for 20 years. war reporting has been a
> > > > > >> complete sell-out since The Falklands Fiasco. In reporting the
> > > > > >> closure of fifty UK pubs a week, no mention was made of the fact
> > that
> > > > > >> there was no longer any money in the hands of those who used to
> > use
> > > > > >> them - in 1980 the bottom 50% had 14% of the country's liquid
> > assets -
> > > > > >> now it's less than 1% - and clearly why businesses reliant on it
> > have
> > > > > >> shut.
>
> > > > > >> Given that the cost of manufacturing in most products we buy is
> > 10-15%
> > > > > >> it's hard to see the business case for much 'offshoring' and
> > there has
> > > > > >> never been a case of us to decimate manufacturing other than for
> > the
> > > > > >> ideological right wanting to kill off unions and gerrymander
> > > > > >> electorates.
>
> > > > > >> The positives we need to get to include (tomorrow):
> > > > > >> 1.bringing back manufacturing
> > > > > >> 2.limited debt jubilee
> > > > > >> 3. return to primitive banking
> > > > > >> 4. new greener products - we should aim to cut all domestic energy
> > > > > >> needs by 70%
> > > > > >> 5. bring in international/national service for all across US and
> > > > > >> Europe to abolish youth unemployment and long-term unemployment
> > > > > >> 6. raise wages
> > > > > >> 7. cap high earnings and bring in wealth taxes that ensure
> > capital is
> > > > > >> invested
> > > > > >> 8.hang the next bankster who threatens the treason of selling out
> > to
> > > > > >> some tax haven
> > > > > >> 9. insist on transparent accounting on a global basis (I teach the
> > > > > >> stuff and can no longer make sense of balance sheets)
> > > > > >> 10. no more derivatives
> > > > > >> 11. start looking for massive efficiency savings in new ways that
> > > > > >> don't turn corporations into sociopaths.
> > > > > >> 12. establish world-wide quality of working life standards and
> > give
> > > > > >> the kind of support to all that leads to population control (which
> > > > > >> includes stopping the fear your kids are so likely to die you
> > need to
> > > > > >> have loads).
> > > > > >> 13. stop money controlling politics - partly by ensuring it isn't
> > to
> > > > > >> spare for this kind of influence.
> > > > > >> 14. encourage genuine self-reliance through more work-based
> > learning.
> > > > > >> 15. make politicians meet in public (Internet broadcast) not in
> > secret
> > > > > >> - and get on with a genuine peace that will entail getting rid of
> > > > > >> rougue states and medievalist clowns
>
> > > > > >> Whatever the list we need to decide it and not allow the brush
> > off
> > > > > >> that we can't afford it. We can. What we can't afford is for it
> > to
> > > > > >> turn into some centralised communism or be taken over by current
> > > > > >> centralised money.
>
> > > > > >> On Nov 7, 1:26 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >> > I share Pat's 'tears'. In science one can pull off the positive
> > > > > >> > eliminations and work with what's left. In the social this is
> > > > hardly
> > > > > >> > possible without moving into some solipsist fantasy as in
> > Descartes
> > > > or
> > > > > >> > Ayn Rand's "objectivism". The farce in logical positivism is
> > that
> > > > of
> > > > > >> > the return of desire. In attempting to extirpate system
> > building
> > > > > >> > (metaphysics) one is really building another. 7 books may have
> > been
> > > > > >> > written by Plato on how to stave off elite corruption - but of
> > > > course
> > > > > >> > he was crating an elite that would be corrupted as the
> > Democracy was
> > > > > >> > corrupted around him,nearly always at war.
> > > > > >> > Inmy conception we are always working with the Undead memes of
> > the
> > > > > >> > past and a way forward is to bring them to light.I at least
> > partly
> > > > > >> > think my years in study (mostly teaching and research) have led
> > to
> > > > me
> > > > > >> > some of the right places but one always faces the reality James
> > > > > >> > explains a bit above.
> > > > > >> > My frustration with philosophy is this - it relies on abilities
> > few
> > > > > >> > have and over time has become a pastime for these few. Almost
> > > > > >> > everything in academe turns to this.
> > > > > >> > In one of those weird turns, had the new inheritance laws for
> > royal
> > > > > >> > succession just brought in been around 200 years ago, the world
> > wars
> > > > > >> > may not have happened because the king of England would have
> > been
> > > > > >> > Germany's Kaiser. I suspect imperialism would have had its way
> > > > > >> > anyway, but some odd turn may lead us away from the current
> > abyss.
> > > > > >> > OccupyX is at least getting at old left-right divides.
>
> > > > > >> > On Nov 5, 8:59 pm, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > >> > > On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 11:17 AM, Pat <
> > > > PatrickDHarring...@hotmail.com>
> > > > > >> wrote:
>
> > > > > >> > > > On Oct 27, 6:43 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >> > > >> The communist angle always makes me smirk Pat. The
> > original
> > > > > >> written
> > > > > >> > > >> form was elite (Plato) and aimed at cutting the
> > temptations of
> > > > > >> > > >> corruption,and the American anti-commie stuff always
> > failed to
> > > > > >> reflect
> > > > > >> > > >> on itself as dire ideology. These days we have 'loop
> > theories'
> > > > > >> that
> > > > > >> > > >> relish both capitalism and communism in some kind of
>
> ...
>
> read more »
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