networks) or tripwire in single computers. You put out some low
hanging fruit and see who bites, bam you've got a blacklist. :)
Wouldn't it be interesting to see that happen in politics!
On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 1:49 AM, Allan H <allanh1946@gmail.com> wrote:
> would like to see those greedy people lose thier money.
> Allan
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 2:12 AM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> In terms of helping Greece, only 19 cents on the dollar of bailout
>> money will reach the country - the rest really bails out banks.
>> Private bond holders have just been downgraded by an ECB dodge - they
>> have swapped their old Greek holdings for new debt that means private
>> holders of the old stuff are trashed down the default pecking order.
>> This is an arbitrary change in bankruptcy law done retrospectively.
>> It would put me off any Eurobond.
>>
>> On Feb 19, 4:30 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Bankruptcy laws are a-changing Don. Student loans can't be written-
>> > off in a court anymore, and when the looters hollow-out a company, the
>> > banks get posted to the top of the recipient list in administration
>> > ahead of mugs like us who thought we might see a return. Bankruptcy
>> > at this level is complex because derivatives play a role. We don't
>> > know who really holds Greek debt or whether that held by the City of
>> > London is gold or guano. These debts are supposedly insured - but
>> > instead of that meaning a payout as from a car crash, it seems to mean
>> > a wad of claims because of all the derivative bets on the failure
>> > (2008 repeat in spades). In the UK's case we need to know whether the
>> > debts or banks created are investment assets or donkey-droppings. You
>> > and I could have a few million in debt but wouldn't care if this was
>> > because we'd borrowed to buy into a productive gold mine. Rather
>> > than bankruptcy what's needed is to mark assets (which may be debts on
>> > a bank balance sheet) to market - currently much is marked to models
>> > that may be completely fictitious.
>> > What we've seen so far is that tax payers hold the baby. QEs and the
>> > rest mean money we saved for pensions is both worth less and can
>> > demand lower annuities because the return on gilts (Treasury bonds) is
>> > kept down. Greece would already be bankrupt if just their money was
>> > involved - this will turn out to be leveraged many times over through
>> > derivatives. real bankruptcy would hit the bond holders and this is
>> > what we should do, along with a return to primitive banking.
>> >
>> > On Feb 19, 4:05 am, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > Are you familiar with our Bankruptcy laws Neil? I would hope your
>> > > country
>> > > and possibly Greece has something similar. IF not maybe that's the
>> > > answer.
>> > > Too Big To Fail isn't working out so well.
>> >
>> > > dj
>> >
>> > > On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 6:03 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > > > >http://www.zerohedge.com/news/guest-post-when-debt-more-important-peo...
>> > > > This is the moral argument as I see it.
>> >
>> > > > On Feb 17, 4:17 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > > Whatever we say in respect of these problems we tend to imagine
>> > > > > false
>> > > > > hopes without dealing with them. Can we really imagine, given
>> > > > > history, that a bunch of bureaucrats making decisions must be
>> > > > > better
>> > > > > than a business approach, that the public sector must be better
>> > > > > than
>> > > > > private enterprise or any of the reverses? State capitalism is a
>> > > > > big
>> > > > > thing and doing at least as well as private conglomerates (see the
>> > > > > current Economist). These ideologies have much in common and a
>> > > > > notable lack of common control and have rich and powerful people
>> > > > > running them.
>> > > > > I suspect the Greeks need the same help as the rest of us - a new
>> > > > > work-
>> > > > > reward ethic of a living wage from all jobs and finance as a
>> > > > > utility.
>> > > > > This apparently modest statement is "revolutionary".
>> >
>> > > > > On Feb 17, 3:06 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > > > > I'm not sure science does move so slowly Vam - but I certainly
>> > > > > > feel
>> > > > > > the same frustration. Perhaps the most amazing thing in the
>> > > > > > current
>> > > > > > 'debate' on economic plight is that the obvious issue is that a
>> > > > > > tiny
>> > > > > > rich hold ever increasing bags of swag whilst blaming everyone
>> > > > > > else
>> > > > > > for the lack of money! This has been particularly true in
>> > > > > > Greece.
>> > > > > > There's a good argument that capital is currently idle -
>> > > > > > companies
>> > > > > > are sitting on much more cash than usual.
>> > > > > > On Vam's point on science being too slow I'd take the view that
>> > > > > > the
>> > > > > > problem is most people can't cope with its world-view, and deep
>> > > > > > in
>> > > > > > that are issues that people can't cope with more than one,
>> > > > > > conflate
>> > > > > > this with individuality and protect it at all costs. The
>> > > > > > despair for
>> > > > > > me is that I see all kinds of iniquity and there is rarely much
>> > > > > > I can
>> > > > > > do. My sense of this is that we fail to address power issues at
>> > > > > > all
>> > > > > > levels and these would be key to real change. What we should be
>> > > > > > looking for is a system of free people who can organise their
>> > > > > > work for
>> > > > > > what is needed and this is a moral issue of legitimation.
>> > > > > > What I would look at in the first place are those work systems
>> > > > > > in
>> > > > > > which nearly all the participants cannot work their way to
>> > > > > > decent,
>> > > > > > self-sustaining community. Examples would include Indian rural
>> > > > > > farming where the only 'way out' is suicide (a quarter of a
>> > > > > > million in
>> > > > > > ten years), Gary Indiana and swathes of unemployment everywhere.
>> > > > > > I
>> > > > > > cannot believe wages have to be linked to an endless and
>> > > > > > immoral
>> > > > > > search to doing them down for the purpose of competitive
>> > > > > > advantage -
>> > > > > > or that consumption is any kind of model for economics when the
>> > > > > > planet
>> > > > > > can't take it. The body can't take it either when on looks at
>> > > > > > how
>> > > > > > unhealthy we get.
>> >
>> > > > > > What the rich are currently doing is seeking ownership of real
>> > > > > > assets
>> > > > > > in order to rent them out to the rest of us. The model is
>> > > > > > ostensibly
>> > > > > > more complex than money-lending in rural India, but actually
>> > > > > > much the
>> > > > > > same. The Greeks are supposed to put up with foreign ownership
>> > > > > > of
>> > > > > > their soil and then work their way out of the mess - a clear
>> > > > > > case of
>> > > > > > economics as war by other means.
>> >
>> > > > > > Any analysis will show that liquidity has been taken out of our
>> > > > > > communities (not long ago the bottom half of UK and US people
>> > > > > > had 14%
>> > > > > > of liquid assets we can think of as cash - this is down to 1%)
>> > > > > > and
>> > > > > > wages have spiralled down - without welfare (more than 50% get
>> > > > > > some)
>> > > > > > we'd have to work for less than the Chinese. Many who object
>> > > > > > to
>> > > > > > welfare are in receipt of it! The situation is so stupid one
>> > > > > > finds
>> > > > > > explanations like Laffer Curves to justify tax dodging by big
>> > > > > > companies are seriously entertained and evidence they are dud
>> > > > > > ignored.
>> > > > > > Yet volunteer to put one's shoulder to the wheel and one can
>> > > > > > find no
>> > > > > > place to put the effort in - certainly not for fair reward. We
>> > > > > > have
>> > > > > > debates on whether bankers are worth vast bonuses - with no
>> > > > > > consideration that such payments enslave unnamed others over
>> > > > > > generations and without questions on why vast increases in
>> > > > > > productivity are not shared in general living standards and
>> > > > > > opportunity. This is a moral shambles (a term originating in
>> > > > > > English
>> > > > > > from 'butcher's yard').
>> >
>> > > > > > To make money, even US university alumni funds are invested in
>> > > > > > 'vulture funds' with Africans killed or turfed off land - much
>> > > > > > as my
>> > > > > > fellow Scots in the Enclosures. Tax not paid in order for
>> > > > > > companies
>> > > > > > (and a few individuals) to accumulate it is at the heart of the
>> > > > > > mess.
>> > > > > > No one should believe this is just a Greek matter. One can
>> > > > > > make the
>> > > > > > case that what's going on is good money (social capital) being
>> > > > > > chased
>> > > > > > out by bad.
>> >
>> > > > > > The Greeks hate the Turks.
>> >
>> > > > > > On Feb 17, 2:42 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > > > > > I started thinking about the Paris Commune but they left the
>> > > > > > > banks
>> > > > > > > alone. :-) //One's rather short life span probably contributes
>> > > > > > > to our
>> > > > > > > fuzzy comprehension along with a lack of maturity/independence
>> > > > > > > when
>> > > > > > > important choices are made. Hopefully, the "list" will be
>> > > > > > > balanced in
>> > > > > > > review- to see our errors as well as our successes. Also- some
>> > > > > > > "also
>> > > > > > > serve who only stand and wait"- John Milton.
>> >
>> > > > > > > On Feb 16, 10:42 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > > > > > > This was great discussion, spot on ! Let me add some on
>> > > > > > > > morals...
>> >
>> > > > > > > > Morals are an individual function that serves " the " social
>> > > > > > > > responsibility.
>> > > > > > > > But the individual can be moral, have the reason to be
>> > > > > > > > moral,
>> > > > > > > > and continue to be moral, ONLY to the extent he knows
>> > > > > > > > AND REMEMBERS the " cause and effect " facts,
>> > > > > > > > their value for himself and humanity... the truths.
>> >
>> > > > > > > > Because, time separates the cause and effect. Most
>> > > > > > > > science...
>> > > > physics,
>> > > > > > > > chemistry, biology, medicine... the knowledge of it is
>> > > > > > > > gleaned from
>> > > > > > > > what is happening before our eyes, or over days and months,
>> > > > > > > > even
>> > > > > > > > years. But that isn't all, is in fact horribly deficient,
>> > > > > > > > too
>> > > > little
>> > > > > > > > to enable us to make a choice, act or institute.
>> >
>> > > > > > > > It takes decades and centuries for the most crucial effects
>> > > > > > > > to
>> > > > emerge,
>> > > > > > > > in very inscrutable but inevitable ways.
>> >
>> > > > > > > > So, science keeps contradicting, revising, restating,
>> > > > re-defining... a
>> > > > > > > > hailed panacea is declared harmful 20 - 30 years later...
>> > > > > > > > all
>> > > > manner
>> > > > > > > > of very scientific "logic" is then publicised, gets
>> > > > > > > > instituted,
>> > > > purely
>> > > > > > > > to raise money and concentrate power, establish business
>> > > > > > > > networks
>> > > > that
>> > > > > > > > involve millions of people and spew economic funda that
>> > > > > > > > determine
>> > > > > > > > State policies. Today, over US $400 billion is consumed in
>> > > > > > > > drugs
>> > > > that
>> > > > > > > > are psychotropic ! The weapons industry in the West - the
>> > > > > > > > massive
>> > > > > > > > massive motha fkg industry - is a case in point, of State
>> > > > > > > > and
>> > > > > > > > Economic priorities set on such logic supported by very what
>> > > > reputed
>> > > > > > > > strategic research institutions and highly honourable think
>> > > > > > > > tanks.
>> >
>> > > > > > > > I am making a case for good, old memory, dear. Since
>> > > > > > > > morality is an
>> > > > > > > > individual function, though a social imperative, it is
>> > > > > > > > memory of
>> > > > our
>> > > > > > > > knowledge of " Being ", of cause and effect, of the
>> > > > > > > > knowledge we
>> > > > have
>> > > > > > > > of ourself, of our behaviour, thought and attitude,
>> > > > > > > > discovered
>> > > > > > > > knowledge about things and beings, of what is undesirable
>> > > > > > > > and
>> > > > should
>> > > > > > > > be avoided or prevented, of what is
>> >
>> > ...
>> >
>> > read more »
>
>
>
>
> --
> (
> )
> |_D Allan
>
> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
>
>
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