I have zero faith in this Congress and very little hope for the next one. I'm disappointed in my available choices for the next Pres. Send us Maggie Thatcher please. Or someone very like her.
dj
On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 10:30 AM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
Bankruptcy laws are a-changing Don. Student loans can't be written-
off in a court anymore, and when the looters hollow-out a company, the
banks get posted to the top of the recipient list in administration
ahead of mugs like us who thought we might see a return. Bankruptcy
at this level is complex because derivatives play a role. We don't
know who really holds Greek debt or whether that held by the City of
London is gold or guano. These debts are supposedly insured - but
instead of that meaning a payout as from a car crash, it seems to mean
a wad of claims because of all the derivative bets on the failure
(2008 repeat in spades). In the UK's case we need to know whether the
debts or banks created are investment assets or donkey-droppings. You
and I could have a few million in debt but wouldn't care if this was
because we'd borrowed to buy into a productive gold mine. Rather
than bankruptcy what's needed is to mark assets (which may be debts on
a bank balance sheet) to market - currently much is marked to models
that may be completely fictitious.
What we've seen so far is that tax payers hold the baby. QEs and the
rest mean money we saved for pensions is both worth less and can
demand lower annuities because the return on gilts (Treasury bonds) is
kept down. Greece would already be bankrupt if just their money was
involved - this will turn out to be leveraged many times over through
derivatives. real bankruptcy would hit the bond holders and this is
what we should do, along with a return to primitive banking.
> On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 6:03 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Feb 19, 4:05 am, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Are you familiar with our Bankruptcy laws Neil? I would hope your country
> and possibly Greece has something similar. IF not maybe that's the answer.
> Too Big To Fail isn't working out so well.
>
> dj
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> >http://www.zerohedge.com/news/guest-post-when-debt-more-important-peo...
> ...> > This is the moral argument as I see it.
>
> > On Feb 17, 4:17 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Whatever we say in respect of these problems we tend to imagine false
> > > hopes without dealing with them. Can we really imagine, given
> > > history, that a bunch of bureaucrats making decisions must be better
> > > than a business approach, that the public sector must be better than
> > > private enterprise or any of the reverses? State capitalism is a big
> > > thing and doing at least as well as private conglomerates (see the
> > > current Economist). These ideologies have much in common and a
> > > notable lack of common control and have rich and powerful people
> > > running them.
> > > I suspect the Greeks need the same help as the rest of us - a new work-
> > > reward ethic of a living wage from all jobs and finance as a utility.
> > > This apparently modest statement is "revolutionary".
>
> > > On Feb 17, 3:06 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > I'm not sure science does move so slowly Vam - but I certainly feel
> > > > the same frustration. Perhaps the most amazing thing in the current
> > > > 'debate' on economic plight is that the obvious issue is that a tiny
> > > > rich hold ever increasing bags of swag whilst blaming everyone else
> > > > for the lack of money! This has been particularly true in Greece.
> > > > There's a good argument that capital is currently idle - companies
> > > > are sitting on much more cash than usual.
> > > > On Vam's point on science being too slow I'd take the view that the
> > > > problem is most people can't cope with its world-view, and deep in
> > > > that are issues that people can't cope with more than one, conflate
> > > > this with individuality and protect it at all costs. The despair for
> > > > me is that I see all kinds of iniquity and there is rarely much I can
> > > > do. My sense of this is that we fail to address power issues at all
> > > > levels and these would be key to real change. What we should be
> > > > looking for is a system of free people who can organise their work for
> > > > what is needed and this is a moral issue of legitimation.
> > > > What I would look at in the first place are those work systems in
> > > > which nearly all the participants cannot work their way to decent,
> > > > self-sustaining community. Examples would include Indian rural
> > > > farming where the only 'way out' is suicide (a quarter of a million in
> > > > ten years), Gary Indiana and swathes of unemployment everywhere. I
> > > > cannot believe wages have to be linked to an endless and immoral
> > > > search to doing them down for the purpose of competitive advantage -
> > > > or that consumption is any kind of model for economics when the planet
> > > > can't take it. The body can't take it either when on looks at how
> > > > unhealthy we get.
>
> > > > What the rich are currently doing is seeking ownership of real assets
> > > > in order to rent them out to the rest of us. The model is ostensibly
> > > > more complex than money-lending in rural India, but actually much the
> > > > same. The Greeks are supposed to put up with foreign ownership of
> > > > their soil and then work their way out of the mess - a clear case of
> > > > economics as war by other means.
>
> > > > Any analysis will show that liquidity has been taken out of our
> > > > communities (not long ago the bottom half of UK and US people had 14%
> > > > of liquid assets we can think of as cash - this is down to 1%) and
> > > > wages have spiralled down - without welfare (more than 50% get some)
> > > > we'd have to work for less than the Chinese. Many who object to
> > > > welfare are in receipt of it! The situation is so stupid one finds
> > > > explanations like Laffer Curves to justify tax dodging by big
> > > > companies are seriously entertained and evidence they are dud ignored.
> > > > Yet volunteer to put one's shoulder to the wheel and one can find no
> > > > place to put the effort in - certainly not for fair reward. We have
> > > > debates on whether bankers are worth vast bonuses - with no
> > > > consideration that such payments enslave unnamed others over
> > > > generations and without questions on why vast increases in
> > > > productivity are not shared in general living standards and
> > > > opportunity. This is a moral shambles (a term originating in English
> > > > from 'butcher's yard').
>
> > > > To make money, even US university alumni funds are invested in
> > > > 'vulture funds' with Africans killed or turfed off land - much as my
> > > > fellow Scots in the Enclosures. Tax not paid in order for companies
> > > > (and a few individuals) to accumulate it is at the heart of the mess.
> > > > No one should believe this is just a Greek matter. One can make the
> > > > case that what's going on is good money (social capital) being chased
> > > > out by bad.
>
> > > > The Greeks hate the Turks.
>
> > > > On Feb 17, 2:42 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > I started thinking about the Paris Commune but they left the banks
> > > > > alone. :-) //One's rather short life span probably contributes to our
> > > > > fuzzy comprehension along with a lack of maturity/independence when
> > > > > important choices are made. Hopefully, the "list" will be balanced in
> > > > > review- to see our errors as well as our successes. Also- some "also
> > > > > serve who only stand and wait"- John Milton.
>
> > > > > On Feb 16, 10:42 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > This was great discussion, spot on ! Let me add some on morals...
>
> > > > > > Morals are an individual function that serves " the " social
> > > > > > responsibility.
> > > > > > But the individual can be moral, have the reason to be moral,
> > > > > > and continue to be moral, ONLY to the extent he knows
> > > > > > AND REMEMBERS the " cause and effect " facts,
> > > > > > their value for himself and humanity... the truths.
>
> > > > > > Because, time separates the cause and effect. Most science...
> > physics,
> > > > > > chemistry, biology, medicine... the knowledge of it is gleaned from
> > > > > > what is happening before our eyes, or over days and months, even
> > > > > > years. But that isn't all, is in fact horribly deficient, too
> > little
> > > > > > to enable us to make a choice, act or institute.
>
> > > > > > It takes decades and centuries for the most crucial effects to
> > emerge,
> > > > > > in very inscrutable but inevitable ways.
>
> > > > > > So, science keeps contradicting, revising, restating,
> > re-defining... a
> > > > > > hailed panacea is declared harmful 20 - 30 years later... all
> > manner
> > > > > > of very scientific "logic" is then publicised, gets instituted,
> > purely
> > > > > > to raise money and concentrate power, establish business networks
> > that
> > > > > > involve millions of people and spew economic funda that determine
> > > > > > State policies. Today, over US $400 billion is consumed in drugs
> > that
> > > > > > are psychotropic ! The weapons industry in the West - the massive
> > > > > > massive motha fkg industry - is a case in point, of State and
> > > > > > Economic priorities set on such logic supported by very what
> > reputed
> > > > > > strategic research institutions and highly honourable think tanks.
>
> > > > > > I am making a case for good, old memory, dear. Since morality is an
> > > > > > individual function, though a social imperative, it is memory of
> > our
> > > > > > knowledge of " Being ", of cause and effect, of the knowledge we
> > have
> > > > > > of ourself, of our behaviour, thought and attitude, discovered
> > > > > > knowledge about things and beings, of what is undesirable and
> > should
> > > > > > be avoided or prevented, of what is desirable and should valued,
> > > > > > cultivated and persist with.
>
> > > > > > If we knew and remembered history, in all its details going back to
> > > > > > individual function, we'd know what is best for us and humanity.
>
> > > > > > But do not write history in that manner... we report date and
> > events,
> > > > > > and gross happenings and developments, never the individuals' act,
> > > > > > intent and choices, their reasons, logic and perceptions, purposes
> > and
> > > > > > ambitions, and prevailing social thought and beliefs going back to
> > > > > > individuals' function... ambitions, manipulations and beliefs,
>
> > > > > > The more we know and remember, the more valid will be our
> > knowledge,
> > > > > > in truth, of value and values that hold on longer time scale.
>
> > > > > > On Feb 17, 8:19 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > I read this plus comments. I didn't understand all of the
> > economics.
> > > > > > > What about those people who are hiding money at home? What if the
> > > > > > > currency is changed- didn't the US demand that silver
> > certificates and
> > > > > > > gold coins be turned in? Anyway- you are right and I was harsh
> > and
> > > > > > > hasty.// Doesn't our government own our debt ultimately rather
> > than
> > > > > > > the banks via laws and regulations. As far as I know Wall Street
> > and
> > > > > > > the banks are operating within granted privileges- taxes are set
> > by
> > > > > > > law- even the Congress could benefit from insider trades till
> > their
> > > > > > > recent bill. Anyway, the Greek carpenter's story was sad and
> > bleak. I
> > > > > > > hope Greece defaults- I think- but does not rejoin the new
> > Ottoman
> > > > > > > Empire.//I wonder what I will do when the US collapses? Probably
> > > > > > > hitchhike to one of my sons...//Yes- it does boil down to values
> > and
> > > > > > > morals- our modern world is psychotic.
>
> > > > > > > On Feb 16, 5:14 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > I'd say this is similar to what I
>
>
> read more »
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