the same frustration. Perhaps the most amazing thing in the current
'debate' on economic plight is that the obvious issue is that a tiny
rich hold ever increasing bags of swag whilst blaming everyone else
for the lack of money! This has been particularly true in Greece.
There's a good argument that capital is currently idle - companies
are sitting on much more cash than usual.
On Vam's point on science being too slow I'd take the view that the
problem is most people can't cope with its world-view, and deep in
that are issues that people can't cope with more than one, conflate
this with individuality and protect it at all costs. The despair for
me is that I see all kinds of iniquity and there is rarely much I can
do. My sense of this is that we fail to address power issues at all
levels and these would be key to real change. What we should be
looking for is a system of free people who can organise their work for
what is needed and this is a moral issue of legitimation.
What I would look at in the first place are those work systems in
which nearly all the participants cannot work their way to decent,
self-sustaining community. Examples would include Indian rural
farming where the only 'way out' is suicide (a quarter of a million in
ten years), Gary Indiana and swathes of unemployment everywhere. I
cannot believe wages have to be linked to an endless and immoral
search to doing them down for the purpose of competitive advantage -
or that consumption is any kind of model for economics when the planet
can't take it. The body can't take it either when on looks at how
unhealthy we get.
What the rich are currently doing is seeking ownership of real assets
in order to rent them out to the rest of us. The model is ostensibly
more complex than money-lending in rural India, but actually much the
same. The Greeks are supposed to put up with foreign ownership of
their soil and then work their way out of the mess - a clear case of
economics as war by other means.
Any analysis will show that liquidity has been taken out of our
communities (not long ago the bottom half of UK and US people had 14%
of liquid assets we can think of as cash - this is down to 1%) and
wages have spiralled down - without welfare (more than 50% get some)
we'd have to work for less than the Chinese. Many who object to
welfare are in receipt of it! The situation is so stupid one finds
explanations like Laffer Curves to justify tax dodging by big
companies are seriously entertained and evidence they are dud ignored.
Yet volunteer to put one's shoulder to the wheel and one can find no
place to put the effort in - certainly not for fair reward. We have
debates on whether bankers are worth vast bonuses - with no
consideration that such payments enslave unnamed others over
generations and without questions on why vast increases in
productivity are not shared in general living standards and
opportunity. This is a moral shambles (a term originating in English
from 'butcher's yard').
To make money, even US university alumni funds are invested in
'vulture funds' with Africans killed or turfed off land - much as my
fellow Scots in the Enclosures. Tax not paid in order for companies
(and a few individuals) to accumulate it is at the heart of the mess.
No one should believe this is just a Greek matter. One can make the
case that what's going on is good money (social capital) being chased
out by bad.
The Greeks hate the Turks.
On Feb 17, 2:42 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I started thinking about the Paris Commune but they left the banks
> alone. :-) //One's rather short life span probably contributes to our
> fuzzy comprehension along with a lack of maturity/independence when
> important choices are made. Hopefully, the "list" will be balanced in
> review- to see our errors as well as our successes. Also- some "also
> serve who only stand and wait"- John Milton.
>
> On Feb 16, 10:42 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > This was great discussion, spot on ! Let me add some on morals...
>
> > Morals are an individual function that serves " the " social
> > responsibility.
> > But the individual can be moral, have the reason to be moral,
> > and continue to be moral, ONLY to the extent he knows
> > AND REMEMBERS the " cause and effect " facts,
> > their value for himself and humanity... the truths.
>
> > Because, time separates the cause and effect. Most science... physics,
> > chemistry, biology, medicine... the knowledge of it is gleaned from
> > what is happening before our eyes, or over days and months, even
> > years. But that isn't all, is in fact horribly deficient, too little
> > to enable us to make a choice, act or institute.
>
> > It takes decades and centuries for the most crucial effects to emerge,
> > in very inscrutable but inevitable ways.
>
> > So, science keeps contradicting, revising, restating, re-defining... a
> > hailed panacea is declared harmful 20 - 30 years later... all manner
> > of very scientific "logic" is then publicised, gets instituted, purely
> > to raise money and concentrate power, establish business networks that
> > involve millions of people and spew economic funda that determine
> > State policies. Today, over US $400 billion is consumed in drugs that
> > are psychotropic ! The weapons industry in the West - the massive
> > massive motha fkg industry - is a case in point, of State and
> > Economic priorities set on such logic supported by very what reputed
> > strategic research institutions and highly honourable think tanks.
>
> > I am making a case for good, old memory, dear. Since morality is an
> > individual function, though a social imperative, it is memory of our
> > knowledge of " Being ", of cause and effect, of the knowledge we have
> > of ourself, of our behaviour, thought and attitude, discovered
> > knowledge about things and beings, of what is undesirable and should
> > be avoided or prevented, of what is desirable and should valued,
> > cultivated and persist with.
>
> > If we knew and remembered history, in all its details going back to
> > individual function, we'd know what is best for us and humanity.
>
> > But do not write history in that manner... we report date and events,
> > and gross happenings and developments, never the individuals' act,
> > intent and choices, their reasons, logic and perceptions, purposes and
> > ambitions, and prevailing social thought and beliefs going back to
> > individuals' function... ambitions, manipulations and beliefs,
>
> > The more we know and remember, the more valid will be our knowledge,
> > in truth, of value and values that hold on longer time scale.
>
> > On Feb 17, 8:19 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > I read this plus comments. I didn't understand all of the economics.
> > > What about those people who are hiding money at home? What if the
> > > currency is changed- didn't the US demand that silver certificates and
> > > gold coins be turned in? Anyway- you are right and I was harsh and
> > > hasty.// Doesn't our government own our debt ultimately rather than
> > > the banks via laws and regulations. As far as I know Wall Street and
> > > the banks are operating within granted privileges- taxes are set by
> > > law- even the Congress could benefit from insider trades till their
> > > recent bill. Anyway, the Greek carpenter's story was sad and bleak. I
> > > hope Greece defaults- I think- but does not rejoin the new Ottoman
> > > Empire.//I wonder what I will do when the US collapses? Probably
> > > hitchhike to one of my sons...//Yes- it does boil down to values and
> > > morals- our modern world is psychotic.
>
> > > On Feb 16, 5:14 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > I'd say this is similar to what I found on my visit to Piraeus -http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/02/austerity-policy-destroying-gr...
> > > > - and the US is now issuing more debt than it takes in as taxes.
> > > > We can reorganise and should do this by taking down the rich and the
> > > > debt they 'own'.
>
> > > > On Feb 16, 11:08 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Would it were so rigsy. A fairly standard review of what's been
> > > > > happening in finance can be found here -http://www.cfainstitute.org/learning/products/publications/rf/Pages/r...
> > > > > - from the investment managers' professional body. Many ordinary
> > > > > people who put the toil in, including Greeks working two jobs, are
> > > > > discovering what they thought their hard work has earned is worth
> > > > > nothing. These are people who thought they were being self-
> > > > > sufficient. I suspect we have been living off the backs of others too
> > > > > - but believe this current situation may be linked to the recognition
> > > > > the real work that needs doing is under-valued in the crazed libidinal
> > > > > economics. People who put the work time in are finding themselves no
> > > > > better off than the shirkers and some of this is down to work having
> > > > > gone neurotic.
> > > > > What I saw in Greece was people I know as friends working two jobs and
> > > > > more not able to meet mortgage payments - just as in Eastern Europe in
> > > > > transition. Here I find people who have just had private pension
> > > > > payments halved - in Greece this has hit the public sector and will
> > > > > here. Obama is tapping US pension funds. Austerity can work for a
> > > > > home - and I had some great times when broke - but it's bullshit
> > > > > ideology for the gullible as an economic answer.
>
> > > > > On Feb 16, 1:51 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > How do you know what my life has been? I learned a great deal during
> > > > > > lean times- in fact, I would say it was my most creative period. And I
> > > > > > disagree about the banks- although there are certainly some wolves in
> > > > > > life's woods. It's like saying a grocery store or restaurant is to
> > > > > > blame for obesity or digestive ills. Individuals and nations lived
> > > > > > beyond their means and disregarded contracts, etc. Since we have been
> > > > > > nursed on entitlements, many thought they would be bailed so now comes
> > > > > > the whining and tantrums.
>
> > > > > > On Feb 15, 9:38 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > There is nothing left to tighten... Put the same astiaity measures intact
> > > > > > > in your life rigsy... see how it feels.. The majority of these prolems are
> > > > > > > brought on by the banksters..
>
> > > > > > > If Greece fails you will be effected also..
> > > > > > > On Feb 15, 2012 3:16 PM, "rigsy03" <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > Stop destroying your cities, Greeks! Tighten your belts! Pay the
> > > > > > > > Piper!
>
> > > > > > > > On Feb 15, 3:01 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > I see the Banksters desperately trying to destroy Greece.. I have Greek
> > > > > > > > > friends there and I am wondering about Ideas of how to help them once the
> > > > > > > > > Banksters manage to succeed on their mission.
>
> > > > > > > > > Please add your thoughts as it is an up coming problem for me.
> > > > > > > > > Allan
>
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > (
> > > > > > > > > )
> > > > > > > > > |_D Allan
>
> > > > > > > > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
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