Re: Mind's Eye Re: Matter

Taking a glass of water immediately or delaying it for some time is
not a biological need but a choice , sitting on a hunger strike for
days is not a biological need but a choice. Humans have this freedom
to forego biological needs and fast unto death for various causes . I
ask you Allan to introspect a little and see wherein lies your free
choice and where the malicious intent.

On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Allan H <allanh1946@gmail.com> wrote:
> Your logic is not valid RP you just think it is biological needs fall under
> the category of free choice.. they are just physical needs not choices and
> they have nothing to do with god dictating what you have to do ... But for
> you in your state of confusion as to what what free choice is, I guess you
> could call it free choice if you want..
> Replying to your response is a free choice, not a biological need. Do you
> see and understand the difference RP?
> Allan
>
> On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 3:37 PM, RP Singh <1234rp@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I am feeling thirsty and I can choose to quench my thirst or delay it
>> for some time , but why do I choose one and not the other ---simple, I
>> have to follow God's will as if it was my choice i.e. free choice.
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 5:37 PM, Lee Douglas <leerevdouglas@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Indeed! Or I am thirsty and choose to get a drink later, or it is time
>> > for
>> > lunch but I choose to finish composing this one email before I choose to
>> > go
>> > eat.
>> >
>> > On Tuesday, 14 August 2012 12:48:05 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I feel thirsty and go and take a glass of water , it is time for lunch
>> >> and I go and have it --- this is freedom of choice ,consciously
>> >> knowing and acting out the act.
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 5:02 PM, Lee Douglas <leerev...@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > You speak as if we had no choice, and that we simply obey the
>> >> > programing
>> >> > of
>> >> > our bodies.
>> >> >
>> >> > I do get what you mean, I disagree, I think you wrong.
>> >> >
>> >> > We are again just going around in circles you and I RP, we must
>> >> > endevour
>> >> > to
>> >> > brake it.
>> >> >
>> >> > So in an attempt at just that let me try it this way.
>> >> >
>> >> > Let us stick to the machine analogy.
>> >> >
>> >> > If we humans are simply biological machines, what machine are we akin
>> >> > to?
>> >> >
>> >> > Clockwork?
>> >> >
>> >> > With a clock work device you have not many veriables, and things must
>> >> > be
>> >> > wound up in order for the machin to work, a period of winding,
>> >> > working
>> >> > and
>> >> > winding again must occour for the mahcine to work.
>> >> > So unlike a clockwork machine then.
>> >> >
>> >> > Electirical.
>> >> > In an electrical machine you need power source, and input settings
>> >> > for
>> >> > an
>> >> > external force to imput commands, or changes.
>> >> > So not unlike but not too similar to electric machines then.
>> >> >
>> >> > Compturised machines.
>> >> > The heart and soul of the computerised machine is the cpu, the memory
>> >> > and
>> >> > the programing.
>> >> > So maybe we are more akin to the computerised machine that the other
>> >> > two?
>> >> >
>> >> > Or may be a little of each?
>> >> >
>> >> > We can say that the human machine is a self diagnosing, self reparing
>> >> > machine. But all of this is down to the programing. We have some at
>> >> > birth,
>> >> > let us call this predisposition, but the majority of it is picked up
>> >> > as
>> >> > we
>> >> > grow in a particular enviroment, but the more complex the machine the
>> >> > more
>> >> > complex the programing needs to be. As we are constantly adding to
>> >> > our
>> >> > programing via external enviromental influences, there needs be a way
>> >> > to
>> >> > sort the dross from the gold. Indeed there is, our programing over
>> >> > the
>> >> > eons
>> >> > has developed a 'conciousness'. This conciousness is what we use to
>> >> > sotrt
>> >> > and refine our programing, and conciouness being what it is, is
>> >> > capable
>> >> > deciding from distinct and differant possibilites, this ability then
>> >> > is
>> >> > freedom of choice. Our conciouness uses many tools in which to do
>> >> > this,
>> >> > morality and will amongst them, and of course it also takes note of
>> >> > any
>> >> > predispositions.
>> >> >
>> >> > We may be machines but we are conciouse, and it is this in which we
>> >> > find
>> >> > our
>> >> > Self's burried.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Tuesday, 14 August 2012 11:46:19 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What you think and do is you as a organism that is responsible , but
>> >> >> you the organism are made of matter and it is from matter that all
>> >> >> enterprise arise , as such all your actions arise from the working
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> your body and brain which also reacts to the outside environment.
>> >> >> Through CBT it is the organism which is repairing itself and you are
>> >> >> the puppet in the hands of this material body. You are the Front but
>> >> >> are made to feel that you are all in all.
>> >> >> Thoughts and actions arise from bio-chemical activity and the self
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> under the impression that he is free.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Lee Douglas <leerev...@gmail.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> > Okay there are two points on this.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Yes of course genetic predisposition exists, but you make a
>> >> >> > mistake
>> >> >> > when
>> >> >> > you
>> >> >> > claim the strengh of it. It could be that a man is predisposed to
>> >> >> > cancer.
>> >> >> > What this means is it is more likely that as he gets older his
>> >> >> > chance
>> >> >> > of
>> >> >> > some cells becomeing cancerous is higher then the man who has no
>> >> >> > genetic
>> >> >> > predisposition towards cancer; what it is not, is a 100% garentee.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > In a similar vein it may be that I am predisposed towards my
>> >> >> > choice
>> >> >> > in
>> >> >> > child
>> >> >> > rearing, but this is not a garentee that I will never smack my
>> >> >> > child.
>> >> >> > Genetic predisposition, not genetic garentee.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Secondly.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Yes all thought arises as a concequences of the mechanics of the
>> >> >> > brain,
>> >> >> > how
>> >> >> > can it be otherwise. Yet what CBT does and meditaion and a hell
>> >> >> > of a
>> >> >> > lot of
>> >> >> > mind exsercises is to elicit a physical change within the brain to
>> >> >> > complete
>> >> >> > a physcolgical change. You have a circular effect happing.
>> >> >> > Thought
>> >> >> > is
>> >> >> > made
>> >> >> > by the mechanics of the brain, we know that damage to the brain
>> >> >> > causes
>> >> >> > changes to the pyscology of the human. Yet the tought 'I wish to
>> >> >> > change'
>> >> >> > can make a physical change to the brain. Change to will in
>> >> >> > accordance
>> >> >> > with
>> >> >> > will.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On Monday, 13 August 2012 17:12:33 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Whatever we think and whatever we do arises as a consequence of
>> >> >> >> neural
>> >> >> >> activity which precede the thought processes or rather the
>> >> >> >> thought
>> >> >> >> processes are a projection of this activity. When we are offered
>> >> >> >> psycho-therapy our brain reacts to it first and the thought
>> >> >> >> process
>> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> just the consequence , the efforts we make are a result of brain
>> >> >> >> activity which precede them. What are we without our genes ?
>> >> >> >> just
>> >> >> >> nothing! What are we without the universe ? again nothing !
>> >> >> >> Predisposition is just that, an inclination, without which there
>> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> no
>> >> >> >> beginning. You have to start from somewhere and you don't do that
>> >> >> >> from
>> >> >> >> scratch , you have your predisposition.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 9:12 PM, Lee Douglas
>> >> >> >> <leerev...@gmail.com>
>> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >> > Sorry RP, I have to call bullshit on this as you know I would.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > You talk about genetic predisposition and envirmental learning
>> >> >> >> > as
>> >> >> >> > if
>> >> >> >> > these
>> >> >> >> > are rock solid. Let us for just a second remember the power of
>> >> >> >> > words
>> >> >> >> > and
>> >> >> >> > say that a predispostion is exaclty that, not a hard solid rule
>> >> >> >> > and
>> >> >> >> > learnt
>> >> >> >> > behavour can of course be unlearnt.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > When a man goes to a mind doctor for reasons of what ever
>> >> >> >> > meantl
>> >> >> >> > health
>> >> >> >> > problems plauge him, he may be offerd CBT as an aid to getting
>> >> >> >> > his
>> >> >> >> > head
>> >> >> >> > back
>> >> >> >> > in order. How is it that these technichs work if we are really
>> >> >> >> > all
>> >> >> >> > fully
>> >> >> >> > bound and fetterd by our genes and our enviroment?
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > On Monday, 13 August 2012 11:54:12 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> What I would do is limited to my nature and as Lee and I are
>> >> >> >> >> made
>> >> >> >> >> up
>> >> >> >> >> differently his choice would be different , but that would be
>> >> >> >> >> in
>> >> >> >> >> line
>> >> >> >> >> with the choice towards which he is genetically predisposed or
>> >> >> >> >> environmentally learned. What I mean is that will is a
>> >> >> >> >> consequence
>> >> >> >> >> of
>> >> >> >> >> thought processes which end up in making a choice.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 3:22 PM, AmandaRheen
>> >> >> >> >> <Machiav...@gmail.com>
>> >> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> > What I understand you to be saying is merely that free will
>> >> >> >> >> > is
>> >> >> >> >> > limited
>> >> >> >> >> > to
>> >> >> >> >> > the number of possible choices that are available to the
>> >> >> >> >> > organism
>> >> >> >> >> > within
>> >> >> >> >> > the
>> >> >> >> >> > total capacities of the material matter of the organism.
>> >> >> >> >> > The
>> >> >> >> >> > part
>> >> >> >> >> > where
>> >> >> >> >> > you
>> >> >> >> >> > stop making sense to me is
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > " If you think that is freedom , then you are really the
>> >> >> >> >> > master of yourself. " in context of the example you used
>> >> >> >> >> > with
>> >> >> >> >> > Lee.
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > That is "where I would have
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > beaten up a child mercilessly you would not have because
>> >> >> >> >> > you
>> >> >> >> >> > are
>> >> >> >> >> > not
>> >> >> >> >> > free , if you think you are go ahead and shoot up your enemy
>> >> >> >> >> > ,
>> >> >> >> >> > but
>> >> >> >> >> > of
>> >> >> >> >> > course you would not because your reason would stop you
>> >> >> >> >> > where
>> >> >> >> >> > mine
>> >> >> >> >> > would not."
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > What does 'if you think that is freedom, the you are really
>> >> >> >> >> > the
>> >> >> >> >> > master
>> >> >> >> >> > of
>> >> >> >> >> > yourself' mean?
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > On Thursday, July 12, 2012 10:53:49 PM UTC+10, RP Singh
>> >> >> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> The will to change yourself comes from within you , but
>> >> >> >> >> >> those
>> >> >> >> >> >> who
>> >> >> >> >> >> are
>> >> >> >> >> >> ignorant of the intricacies of nature think that they have
>> >> >> >> >> >> brought
>> >> >> >> >> >> about this change. When you breathe you think that you are
>> >> >> >> >> >> freely
>> >> >> >> >> >> doing so but the fact is that it is your body which is
>> >> >> >> >> >> demanding
>> >> >> >> >> >> it.
>> >> >> >> >> >> Whether you are controlling your anger or not is in your
>> >> >> >> >> >> hands
>> >> >> >> >> >> but
>> >> >> >> >> >> your decisions arise from the working of your brain which
>> >> >> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> >> >> matter
>> >> >> >> >> >> and as such governed by neurological or biological
>> >> >> >> >> >> principles.
>> >> >> >> >> >> If
>> >> >> >> >> >> freedom was real the whole machinery of the universe would
>> >> >> >> >> >> have
>> >> >> >> >> >> collapsed and there would have been mayhem everywhere , but
>> >> >> >> >> >> that
>> >> >> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> >> >> not the case and wherever you look you find harmony within.
>> >> >> >> >> >> Whatever
>> >> >> >> >> >> a
>> >> >> >> >> >> man does it is his nature expressing itself , where I would
>> >> >> >> >> >> have
>> >> >> >> >> >> beaten up a child mercilessly you would not have because
>> >> >> >> >> >> you
>> >> >> >> >> >> are
>> >> >> >> >> >> not
>> >> >> >> >> >> free , if you think you are go ahead and shoot up your
>> >> >> >> >> >> enemy ,
>> >> >> >> >> >> but
>> >> >> >> >> >> of
>> >> >> >> >> >> course you would not because your reason would stop you
>> >> >> >> >> >> where
>> >> >> >> >> >> mine
>> >> >> >> >> >> would not. If you think that is freedom , then you are
>> >> >> >> >> >> really
>> >> >> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> >> >> master of yourself.
>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> > --
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > --
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > --
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> (
> )
> |_D Allan
>
> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>

--