Re: Mind's Eye thought experiments

Fear not to climb the correct clevver ladder, Vam, and the power will
remain solely yours!

On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 4:08 PM, Vam <atewari2007@gmail.com> wrote:
> It will still be more clever than the rest !
>
>
> On Tuesday, October 9, 2012 5:04:27 PM UTC+5:30, rigsy03 wrote:
>>
>> Until the next cleverest man/woman comes along! :-)
>>
>> On Oct 8, 5:56 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > " Machines are only as clever as they have been programmed to
>> > be. In some cases that may mean smarter than some humans for specific
>> > acts or purposes ... "
>> >
>> > If a machine is programmed by the cleverest man,
>> >
>> > it would not be ' only ' as clever as it has been programmed
>> >
>> > but it would be more clever than every other man on the planet !
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Monday, October 8, 2012 5:01:02 PM UTC+5:30, rigsy03 wrote:
>> >
>> > > And certain ants have also figured out how to enter the honey bee as a
>> > > parasite which has an ominous impact on pollination. Species pick up
>> > > their behaviors from their groups- some are more dedicated- patterns
>> > > can be disrupted.// Anyway, aren't you equating worth with money/
>> > > salary?//Machines are only as clever as they have been programmed to
>> > > be. In some cases that may mean smarter than some humans for specific
>> > > acts or purposes but still short of general intelligence, insight and
>> > > adaptation.// Old age is not necessarily "lousey" except the final
>> > > chapter is death and certain goals were not realized or possible. Hard
>> > > work/age does not create arthritis- that is a myth. The 12 year old
>> > > across the street has arthritis and started some exercise for
>> > > violinists.
>> >
>> > > On Oct 7, 9:51 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > The archaeological evidence is that such things as the move to
>> > > > farming
>> > > > from hunter-gathering did not improve the human lot for those who
>> > > > cleared and dug sod (arthritis etc. from the work). The obvious
>> > > > issue
>> > > > for present society concerns the dubious status of our work and
>> > > > life-
>> > > > style ideologies. Slave-making ants kill the adults in their host
>> > > > ants and steal the 'eggs' in order to steal the work as they become
>> > > > adult by making them raise their own brood. Even in enslaved ant
>> > > > consciousness something inspires 'rebellion' and 'duty' to the wider
>> > > > collective. Humans have a sad history of enslavement and debt
>> > > > peonage.
>> > > > Undergraduates can be heard every year bemoaning salaries on offer
>> > > > for
>> > > > 'all their hard work' - few of them have done any! The Chinese
>> > > > refer
>> > > > to their graduates who don't get the good jobs as 'Ant People'.
>> > > > Some
>> > > > of my old colleagues inside technological manufacturing used to note
>> > > > the need for workers was disappearing faster than most knew as work
>> > > > and skill is embodied in technology (an old marxist theme). My own
>> > > > feeling is that we have killed off much valuable stuff that James
>> > > > suggests through the ejukation system - falsely imagining subjects
>> > > > designed in our dubious past teach anything other than control
>> > > > fraud.
>> > > > Even medical training involves a lot of unnecessary rot.
>> > > > Some of us think machines are better at 'thinking' than most people
>> > > > (soon Gabby will be made redundant from her Gad-fly role once I
>> > > > clear
>> > > > up a few teething problems with the bots!), partly because no human
>> > > > can encompass the data loads. Allan and I share problems with our
>> > > > 'flash memory' - buzz, ping, PTSD etc. - (it's my time of year to
>> > > > have
>> > > > flash-backs to Northern Ireland) - getting old is lousy - soon my
>> > > > friendly solid state world will move from Enlightenment to
>> > > > Entanglement as I stroke Schrodinger's cat. We have now done this
>> > > > experimentally with some tinkering.
>> > > > Memory is increasingly viewed as about our ability to predict the
>> > > > future - that is its purpose is for this. We find it in non-human
>> > > > life-forms too. This is related to a general science-view of why a
>> > > > system would invest in the resources to have memory at all. I'll
>> > > > leave this babble with the question 'where do the Spartacus ants
>> > > > raised by the slavers get the memories that inspire rebellion'?
>> >
>> > > > On 6 Oct, 19:50, James <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > > > From another perspective one might like to appreciate the role
>> > > > > (or a
>> > > > > role) of life as within an integral spectrum. If there is a world
>> > > > > with
>> > > > > meaning beyond our conceptions it would present a challenge to
>> > > undertake
>> > > > > exploration and discovery. Regardless of conception or outside our
>> > > > > capacity we might be bound by greater rules in nature. These are
>> > > > > questions I think that arise when the suspicion of being led
>> > > > > becomes
>> > > too
>> > > > > great to ignore, fear has a corrupting influence on that as does
>> > > > > the
>> > > > > diverse symbols at our disposal provided by language, corrupting
>> > > > > as in
>> > > > > coloring and distorting. But the tools of identity, shared
>> > > > > language
>> > > and
>> > > > > meanings can facilitate discovery. Internal motives can present a
>> > > > > struggle for a clear picture, and yet without them what impetus
>> > > > > would
>> > > > > there be? Context is amazingly significant, the when and where,
>> > > > > I've
>> > > > > found. That is in part a few features of what I am exploring
>> > > currently,
>> > > > > among the jumble. This can be intimate stuff, thanks for sharing
>> > > > > what
>> > > > > you gather. :)
>> >
>> > > > > On 10/5/2012 4:25 AM, Allan H wrote:
>> >
>> > > > > > Lately I have been trying to get out of this physical concept of
>> > > things
>> > > > > > and look at them from a souls to return to soul with the body as
>> > > nothing
>> > > > > > more than a means of existing in this physical world. this
>> > > > > > seems to
>> > > be
>> > > > > > changing the perspective on what is conceived as reality.
>> > > > > > Allan
>> >
>> > > > > > On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 5:50 AM, James <ashkas...@gmail.com
>> > > > > > <mailto:ashkas...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > > > > We may be on the same page Gabby, my imagined future
>> > > possibilities
>> > > > > > are still clouded by unknowns (to me). That I consider a
>> > > consequence
>> > > > > > of mental bondage to current circumstances, and left
>> > > > > > unchecked
>> > > can
>> > > > > > be demoralizing to creative intelligence. As far as I can
>> > > > > > tell
>> > > we
>> > > > > > are meant to invent solutions to challenges, and hold on as
>> > > > > > long
>> > > as
>> > > > > > possible until the opportunity arises. My opinion is that we
>> > > > > > can
>> > > do
>> > > > > > little to force change but as facilitators we can pursue
>> > > strategic
>> > > > > > challenges that will open those opportunities.
>> >
>> > > > > > If I said that in 10 years the technology should be
>> > > > > > accessible
>> > > to
>> > > > > > refine garbage, wood or any other fuel into electricity at
>> > > > > > 80+
>> > > > > > conversion efficiency from common household materials in
>> > > > > > your
>> > > > > > average (modern) garage there is no shortage of engineers
>> > > > > > that
>> > > would
>> > > > > > call me a quack. If I said that you could do it today with
>> > > moderate
>> > > > > > access to materials refining equipment, with a net generated
>> > > income
>> > > > > > over the winter months, and it could be boosted by running a
>> > > > > > greenhouse and indoor fishery I would be surely nuts. SOFC,
>> > > steam
>> > > > > > reforming, plasma reduction, pyrolytic reduction are a few
>> > > > > > terms
>> > > for
>> > > > > > that type of nut.
>> >
>> > > > > > I think we are missing the spirit of engineering in our
>> > > > > > social
>> > > and
>> > > > > > political dialogue. It could just be me.. we seem to be able
>> > > > > > to
>> > > > > > redefine just about any kind of waste into an asset, but we
>> > > insist
>> > > > > > that primitive human traits are superior and sacrosanct.
>> >
>> > > > > > Navigating awkward transitions, that is what I think we are
>> > > doing
>> > > > > > (not necessarily excellently, but making progress). Still
>> > > passin'
>> > > > > > the buck here, your turn. Sorry for no answer Archy, too bad
>> > > > > > telepathy isn't an option because the picture is clear but I
>> > > just
>> > > > > > don't trust the words yet.
>> >
>> > > > > > On 10/4/2012 5:14 AM, gabbydott wrote:
>> >
>> > > > > > That's right. Us end consumers of your brilliant ideas
>> > > > > > need
>> > > time to
>> > > > > > consume your complex theories in simple practice for you
>> > > > > > to
>> > > see
>> > > > > > where
>> > > > > > we fail to get your idea for you to better educate and
>> > > motivate
>> > > > > > us. :p
>> >
>> > > > > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 4:25 AM,
>> > > > > > James<ashkas...@gmail.com
>> > > > > > <mailto:ashkas...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > > > > I was hoping we could evolve sociologically in step
>> > > > > > with
>> > > > > > technology, that
>> > > > > > implies an intelligent management infrastructure
>> > > > > > that
>> > > > > > educates and motivates
>> > > > > > free agents to make contributions to the works of
>> > > humanity.
>> > > > > > Suitably
>> > > > > > educated in the workings of organisms (especially
>> > > > > > how
>> > > they
>> > > > > > relate and
>> > > > > > compare to man), the arts, sciences, elimination of
>> > > > > > destitution, poverty,
>> > > > > > mental illnesses, the list goes on.. It requires
>> > > > > > that we
>> > > > > > manage things
>> > > > > > intelligently, learn from mistakes and move forward.
>> > > > > > If
>> > > this
>> > > > > > progress
>> > > > > > happened in a 100 years I think we would likely
>> > > > > > reduce
>> > > our
>> > > > > > population to
>> > > > > > half within the next hundred, there is nothing
>> > > > > > logical
>> > > about
>> > > > > > reproducing ad
>> > > > > > infinitum and by then the social costs should be
>> > > > > > obvious
>> > > > > > enough, added to
>> > > > > > the lack of need as we extend the human lifespan. I
>> > > think we
>> > > > > > have a large
>> > > > > > potential in voluntary acts.
>> >
>> > > > > > Who is pie in the sky now? :p
>> >
>> > > > > > On 10/3/2012 5:57 PM, archytas wrote:
>> >
>> > > > > > If workers aren't needed for work, what will
>> > > > > > happen
>> > > to
>> > > > > > them? The
>> > > > > > animal and plant world answer is generally a
>> > > > > > 'return
>> > > to
>> > > > > > nutrients'.
>> >
>> > > > > > On 3 Oct, 09:57, Shekila
>> >
>> > ...
>> >
>> > read more »- Hide quoted text -
>> >
>> > - Show quoted text -
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