Re: Mind's Eye thought experiments

And certain ants have also figured out how to enter the honey bee as a
parasite which has an ominous impact on pollination. Species pick up
their behaviors from their groups- some are more dedicated- patterns
can be disrupted.// Anyway, aren't you equating worth with money/
salary?//Machines are only as clever as they have been programmed to
be. In some cases that may mean smarter than some humans for specific
acts or purposes but still short of general intelligence, insight and
adaptation.// Old age is not necessarily "lousey" except the final
chapter is death and certain goals were not realized or possible. Hard
work/age does not create arthritis- that is a myth. The 12 year old
across the street has arthritis and started some exercise for
violinists.

On Oct 7, 9:51 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The archaeological evidence is that such things as the move to farming
> from hunter-gathering did not improve the human lot for those who
> cleared and dug sod (arthritis etc. from the work).  The obvious issue
> for present society concerns the dubious status of our work and life-
> style ideologies.    Slave-making ants kill the adults in their host
> ants and steal the 'eggs' in order to steal the work as they become
> adult by making them raise their own brood.  Even in enslaved ant
> consciousness something inspires 'rebellion' and 'duty' to the wider
> collective.  Humans have a sad history of enslavement and debt
> peonage.
> Undergraduates can be heard every year bemoaning salaries on offer for
> 'all their hard work' - few of them have done any!  The Chinese refer
> to their graduates who don't get the good jobs as 'Ant People'.  Some
> of my old colleagues inside technological manufacturing used to note
> the need for workers was disappearing faster than most knew as work
> and skill is embodied in technology (an old marxist theme).  My own
> feeling is that we have killed off much valuable stuff that James
> suggests through the ejukation system - falsely imagining subjects
> designed in our dubious past teach anything other than control fraud.
> Even medical training involves a lot of unnecessary rot.
> Some of us think machines are better at 'thinking' than most people
> (soon Gabby will be made redundant from her Gad-fly role once I clear
> up a few teething problems with the bots!), partly because no human
> can encompass the data loads.  Allan and I share problems with our
> 'flash memory' - buzz, ping, PTSD etc. - (it's my time of year to have
> flash-backs to Northern Ireland) - getting old is lousy - soon my
> friendly solid state world will move from Enlightenment to
> Entanglement as I stroke Schrodinger's cat.  We have now done this
> experimentally with some tinkering.
> Memory is increasingly viewed as about our ability to predict the
> future - that is its purpose is for this.  We find it in non-human
> life-forms too.  This is related to a general science-view of why a
> system would invest in the resources to have memory at all.  I'll
> leave this babble with the question 'where do the Spartacus ants
> raised by the slavers get the memories that inspire rebellion'?
>
> On 6 Oct, 19:50, James <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> >  From another perspective one might like to appreciate the role (or a
> > role) of life as within an integral spectrum. If there is a world with
> > meaning beyond our conceptions it would present a challenge to undertake
> > exploration and discovery. Regardless of conception or outside our
> > capacity we might be bound by greater rules in nature. These are
> > questions I think that arise when the suspicion of being led becomes too
> > great to ignore, fear has a corrupting influence on that as does the
> > diverse symbols at our disposal provided by language, corrupting as in
> > coloring and distorting. But the tools of identity, shared language and
> > meanings can facilitate discovery. Internal motives can present a
> > struggle for a clear picture, and yet without them what impetus would
> > there be? Context is amazingly significant, the when and where, I've
> > found. That is in part a few features of what I am exploring currently,
> > among the jumble. This can be intimate stuff, thanks for sharing what
> > you gather. :)
>
> > On 10/5/2012 4:25 AM, Allan H wrote:
>
> > > Lately I have been trying to get out of this physical concept of things
> > > and look at them from a souls to return to soul with the body as nothing
> > > more than a means of existing in this physical world.  this seems to be
> > > changing the perspective on what is conceived as reality.
> > > Allan
>
> > > On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 5:50 AM, James <ashkas...@gmail.com
> > > <mailto:ashkas...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> > >     We may be on the same page Gabby, my imagined future possibilities
> > >     are still clouded by unknowns (to me). That I consider a consequence
> > >     of mental bondage to current circumstances, and left unchecked can
> > >     be demoralizing to creative intelligence. As far as I can tell we
> > >     are meant to invent solutions to challenges, and hold on as long as
> > >     possible until the opportunity arises. My opinion is that we can do
> > >     little to force change but as facilitators we can pursue strategic
> > >     challenges that will open those opportunities.
>
> > >     If I said that in 10 years the technology should be accessible to
> > >     refine garbage, wood or any other fuel into electricity at 80+
> > >     conversion efficiency from common household materials in your
> > >     average (modern) garage there is no shortage of engineers that would
> > >     call me a quack. If I said that you could do it today with moderate
> > >     access to materials refining equipment, with a net generated income
> > >     over the winter months, and it could be boosted by running a
> > >     greenhouse and indoor fishery I would be surely nuts. SOFC, steam
> > >     reforming, plasma reduction, pyrolytic reduction are a few terms for
> > >     that type of nut.
>
> > >     I think we are missing the spirit of engineering in our social and
> > >     political dialogue. It could just be me.. we seem to be able to
> > >     redefine just about any kind of waste into an asset, but we insist
> > >     that primitive human traits are superior and sacrosanct.
>
> > >     Navigating awkward transitions, that is what I think we are doing
> > >     (not necessarily excellently, but making progress). Still passin'
> > >     the buck here, your turn. Sorry for no answer Archy, too bad
> > >     telepathy isn't an option because the picture is clear but I just
> > >     don't trust the words yet.
>
> > >     On 10/4/2012 5:14 AM, gabbydott wrote:
>
> > >         That's right. Us end consumers of your brilliant ideas need time to
> > >         consume your complex theories in simple practice for you to see
> > >         where
> > >         we fail to get your idea for you to better educate and motivate
> > >         us. :p
>
> > >         On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 4:25 AM, James<ashkas...@gmail.com
> > >         <mailto:ashkas...@gmail.com>>  wrote:
>
> > >             I was hoping we could evolve sociologically in step with
> > >             technology, that
> > >             implies an intelligent management infrastructure that
> > >             educates and motivates
> > >             free agents to make contributions to the works of humanity.
> > >             Suitably
> > >             educated in the workings of organisms (especially how they
> > >             relate and
> > >             compare to man), the arts, sciences, elimination of
> > >             destitution, poverty,
> > >             mental illnesses, the list goes on.. It requires that we
> > >             manage things
> > >             intelligently, learn from mistakes and move forward. If this
> > >             progress
> > >             happened in a 100 years I think we would likely reduce our
> > >             population to
> > >             half within the next hundred, there is nothing logical about
> > >             reproducing ad
> > >             infinitum and by then the social costs should be obvious
> > >             enough, added to
> > >             the lack of need as we extend the human lifespan. I think we
> > >             have a large
> > >             potential in voluntary acts.
>
> > >             Who is pie in the sky now? :p
>
> > >             On 10/3/2012 5:57 PM, archytas wrote:
>
> > >                 If workers aren't needed for work, what will happen to
> > >                 them?  The
> > >                 animal and plant world answer is generally a 'return to
> > >                 nutrients'.
>
> > >                 On 3 Oct, 09:57, Shekila
> > >                 Tieschmaker<shekilatieschma.....@yahoo.com
> > >                 <mailto:shekilatieschma...@yahoo.com>>
> > >                 wrote:
>
> > >                     how do you get out this group thing ?
>
> > >                         __________________________________
> > >                         From: James<ashkas...@gmail.com
> > >                         <mailto:ashkas...@gmail.com>>
> > >                         To: minds-eye@googlegroups.com
> > >                         <mailto:minds-eye@googlegroups.com>
> > >                         Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 10:26 PM
> > >                         Subject: Re: Mind's Eye thought experiments
>
> > >                         Well it is far worse (or better depending on who
> > >                         is looking at it), many
> > >                         of the older trades and crafts-people I've met
> > >                         had an appreciation for
> > >                         seeing their work as an artform. That would be
> > >                         my robot heaven, working
> > >                         toward a world where we can all pursue meaning
> > >                         and purposeful work without
> > >                         the burden of resource scarcity. What would it
> > >                         matter that someone wants to
> > >                         be a plumber or architect in a day when those
> > >                         positions are obsolete, if
> > >                         that is pursuing meaning, it would matter little
> > >                         more than
>
> ...
>
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