Re: Mind's Eye Re: Deception

Yes- the BBC scandal plus BenGhazzi and Petraeus and no-show testimony
of latter and Clinton but at least there is a new definition for being
embedded with the troops, isn't there?

On Nov 9, 7:41 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Never really imagine you as a mud wrestler rigs.  How does one wrestle
> mud by the way?  Sounds a bit like politics.  I bought a new car too -
> or at least ordered one for the new year.  A VW Scirocco - 2 litre
> diesel with blue motion technology that gets 64 mpg and does 0 -60 in
> 9.3 seconds - if one believed the salesman the energy it recycles from
> braking would power a small town!  Nice looking beast one can easily
> imagine with a saddle.
>
> Not worth diluting beer over Romney, but I have noticed Obama is only
> the drag version.  There have been no calls for the  Carnielli paper
> from this group.  It's mostly uninteresting, other than in that a
> professional philosopher has noticed life slides on bull-grease.
> What's really in my mind on this relates to rigsy saying that Goethe
> was perhaps the last person to have a grasp of 'everything' - in fact,
> even the great man was largely outside the kick off of modern
> science.  The modern problem is disinformation and education based in
> old hat.
>
> Our most educated broadcast news channel here is C4.  Last night they
> did a bit of a review on Britain's hapless inquiry systems.  A Tory MP
> popped up to describe them as
> 1. a means to kick problems into the long grass
> 2. a means to cover-up in public pretending to do something with the
> intent of changing nothing
> 3. genuine and largely Victorian (forgotten) means to bring about
> radical change by addressing real problems.
>
> We have a paedophile scandal here around Jimmy Saville - a pathetic
> and now dead TV personality.  Politicians are supposedly involved and
> I'm connected in that my brother and father (school teachers) asked me
> for advice when I was a cop - on Saville and some git associated with
> him who ran a school disco.  I got the git (who has just been re-
> arrested) on unrelated criminal matters.  We were sure he was abusing
> young girls - but I can't tell you how hard it was to do anything when
> evidence comes from people who can easily be further abused and
> discredited by scumbag lawyers.  My advice to my brother was that the
> police and wider CJS was hapless - in another enquiry I was reduced to
> pinning a drunk driving charge on a perpetrator in exasperation over
> the real case.
>
> The other side of this stuff is false complaints and mad people who
> claim to be experts and victims and are neither.  In recent years I've
> worked with an academic with a distinct tinge of madness (personally
> delightful) who gets lots of the child abuse stuff right and who was
> able to get bunches of cops to really look at street situations and
> see the abuse.  The woman concerned would be easy to attack on the
> basis of her personal life, drinks a lot, shags fairly
> indiscriminately - and has the score right.  I've just been able to
> interview some of the cops in terms of before and after - all are
> concerned at just how much their eyes have been opened.
>
> My views on deception in argument are based in control fraud.  There
> are similarities between the rings that form to commit fraud and abuse
> rings.  I suspect the 'mechanisms' may be the base of party
> politics.
>
> On 9 Nov, 08:29, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > What you are saying is the crimes against humanity and murders that
> > Bush ordered is okay?
>
> > You need to buy a new car  and put a saddle in it to stay out of the mud.
> > Allan
>
> > On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 12:12 AM, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Better to sit in the saddle then wrestle in the mud...
>
> > > On Nov 8, 1:23 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> I hope the republicans get off their destructive high horse. Romney is
> > >> right both sides need to work for the benefit of the whole nation, not just
> > >> a select few.
> > >> Allan
>
> > >>  Matrix  **  th3 beginning light
> > >> On Nov 8, 2012 5:21 PM, "archytas" <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >> > I was struck that Obama's acceptance speech was prime BA - we could
> > >> > hardly disagree a word yet have no reason to believe any of it is
> > >> > happening, will happen and is anything other than an appeal to those
> > >> > of us with liberal biology - yet we hope it is true and don't think of
> > >> > the real problems under its sway.  Romney was a model democrat in
> > >> > defeat, accepting the will of the people and praying for his
> > >> > opponent.  More BA as the House will already be beavering away to make
> > >> > Obama a lame duck fit to serve with a rigsy sauce.  It's all, as
> > >> > Goffman had it, 'face work'.
> > >> > People my age were all taught Julius Caesar was a great leader who
> > >> > invaded Britain in 53 AD.  In fact, he had been seen off the year
> > >> > before and couldn't get his lads to board the boats.  The barbarians
> > >> > and Philistines of history turn out to have been much more civilised,
> > >> > artistic and all round good guys compared with the Greek and Roman
> > >> > slave-based economies who left us their songs of victory.
>
> > >> > On 7 Nov, 13:36, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> > > One probably needs a critical eye to spot why this paper is itself
> > >> > > bullshit rigsy - but you seem to have got there from the summary
> > >> > > above.  Judging from the political adverts from the US elections we
> > >> > > sampled here last night BS has won.  Polish friends in the Warsaw Pact
> > >> > > days, skilled in Soviet hogwash, were well aware the stuff was just
> > >> > > for public consumption and that the World Bank guff I was supposed to
> > >> > > disseminate just our form of it.  They were quick to see the
> > >> > > apparatchiks were becoming the entrepreneurchicks following the
> > >> > > collapse of the wall.
> > >> > > In Britain one of our MPs is going on an Aussie TV show of the kind
> > >> > > where they dump you in the jungle with custard and hornets in your
> > >> > > hair.  There is much protest concerning her triviality.  My own view
> > >> > > is we should develop a control experiment from this and find out how
> > >> > > many we can dispose of in this manner before we notice an adverse
> > >> > > effect.  As an added torture we could perhaps throw this philosopher
> > >> > > in the mix!
>
> > >> > > On 7 Nov, 11:19, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > >> > > > I suspect the ghost of Diogenes the Cynic is still looking for an
> > >> > > > honest man.
>
> > >> > > > On Nov 5, 10:41 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >> > > > > This from an academic article sent to me on 'bullshit attacks'.
>
> > >> > > > > Walter Carnielli
> > >> > > > > We want to argue that falling into a specific deceptive reasoning
> > >> > > > > which
> > >> > > > > we call bullshit attack is not anything irrational from our side, but
> > >> > > > > rather a
> > >> > > > > rational response from an opponent maneuver, and that the entire
> > >> > > > > episode can
> > >> > > > > bee seen as a game, where logic and a certain principle of rational
> > >> > > > > discussion
> > >> > > > > play essential roles. Indeed, an opponent may act coercively into our
> > >> > > > > reasoning
> > >> > > > > process by using irrelevant facts or assertions, and by telling half
> > >> > > > > truths in such
> > >> > > > > a way that we feel forced to "complete" the story in a way that
> > >> > > > > interest the
> > >> > > > > opponent, perhaps contrary to our own interests.
> > >> > > > > Even to define what is "to deceive" is not easy. The act of deceiving
> > >> > > > > would
> > >> > > > > have to be intentional, and to involve causing a belief - but what
> > >> > > > > about acting
> > >> > > > > as to prevent a false belief to be revised by the other person? And
> > >> > to
> > >> > > > > act as to
> > >> > > > > make the other person to cease to have a true belief, or to prevent
> > >> > > > > the person
> > >> > > > > from acquiring a certain true belief? Of course one can deceive by
> > >> > > > > gestures, by
> > >> > > > > irony and also by just making questions. So there seems to be no
> > >> > > > > universally
> > >> > > > > accepted definition of "deceiving" yet; we assume currently a
> > >> > > > > definition stated
> > >> > > > > in [17]:
> > >> > > > > To deceive  = to intentionally cause another person to have or
> > >> > > > > continue
> > >> > > > > to have a false belief that is truly believed to be false by the
> > >> > > > > person
> > >> > > > > intentionally causing the false belief by bringing about evidence on
> > >> > > > > the basis of which the other person has or continues to have that
> > >> > > > > false
> > >> > > > > belief.
>
> > >> > > > > Summary. This paper intends to open a discussion on how certain
> > >> > > > > dangerous kinds
> > >> > > > > of deceptive reasoning can be defined, in which way it is achieved in
> > >> > > > > a discussion,
> > >> > > > > and which would be the strategies for defense against such deceptive
> > >> > > > > attacks on the
> > >> > > > > light of some principles accepted as fundamental for rationality and
> > >> > > > > logic.
>
> > >> > > > > Last lines (after much on Tarski and Godel) - Starting from the
> > >> > > > > understanding that what I am proposing here is not to use methods of
> > >> > > > > formal or informal logic to analyze fallacies, but to pay due
> > >> > > > > attention to principles that also affect logic, discerning the
> > >> > reasons
> > >> > > > > why we
> > >> > > > > succumb under a bullshit attack may help us to understand why we
> > >> > > > > commit
> > >> > > > > other illusions of reasoning.
>
> > >> > > > > Anyone interested can get the full paper from me by email.
>
> > >> > > > > On a Theoretical Analysis of Deceiving: How
> > >> > > > > to Resist a Bullshit Attack
> > >> > > > > Walter Carnielli
> > >> > > > > GTAL/CLE and Department of Philosophy–IFCH, State University of
> > >> > > > > Campinas,
> > >> > > > > walter.carnie...@cle.unicamp.br
>
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> > > --
>
> > --
> >  (
> >   )
> > |_D Allan
>
> > Life is for moral, ethical and
>
> ...
>
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