Re: Mind's Eye Re: thought experiments

The cut-off-the-parasite image is misleading. It might be interpreted
as if it was something non-me. I prefer the cancer image and the
question how its feeding can be stopped.

On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 5:02 PM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
> Aristotle talked about labour value and Plato thought no one should
> earn more than 6 times the basic. David Graeber's 'Debt' is a long,
> historical sweep. 'Stone Age Economics' would throw a lot of ideas up
> (modern economics being based on a false thought experiment by Smith
> etc). The social epidemiologist Wilkinson wrote an interesting book
> on health and social inequality. The literature is vast rigs - but it
> always is.
> I'd say modern economics does separate value/worth from remuneration -
> JK Galbraith wrote a lot on the financial system as merely a means to
> transferring wealth to the rich. The question to me is more on the
> lines of 'can we cut off the parasite' without losing the motivation
> to work? This would be a return to labour value. The Basque
> cooperative (Mondragon) runs without vast profit-taking. I've been,
> liked the ethos - but admit it's not without problems.
>
> On 2 Nov, 00:28, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Have you or Archytas some examples from human history when there were
>> not class and income disparity? Dicken's Victorian England? Robber
>> barons and the Gilded Age? The Soviet Union? Today's China? Most of
>> the planet? I don't believe there is a work requirement for welfare,
>> is there? Are there valid reasons for the difference in earnings
>> between mental and physical work? What are they? Can you really
>> separate value/worth from remuneration- mostly financial- although I
>> suppose the military and saints get by with medals and sainthood plus
>> a pension or Heaven. The female issues are another subject.
>>
>> On Nov 1, 2:34 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Well Neil I have been doing lot of thinking about the banking
>> > problems,, I find what is not making sense is kind of a strange
>> > problem
>>
>> > Personally I have a hard time of thinking of people as evil or bad..
>> > and i am not a good writer and something you said got me off in
>> > attempting to write a piece on how to worship and pay homage to the
>> > golden calf... well what dawned on me is that what the real problem
>> > is the lose of simple morality,,, people like banksters have lost
>> > simple morality.. I do not think that when they maximize their
>> > profits by not paying interests that is really due to clients and
>> > customers so they can get excessive wages and bonuses
>>
>> > I have heard the excuse that there is nothing they can do about it,,
>> > realizing the failure to pay interest that is due in reality is
>> > stealing.. justifing it does not make it okay to steal.
>> > Allan
>>
>> > On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 1:24 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > That's one of the crucial issues Allan - the original free-table was
>> > > based in a slave economy. Wages involved in providing me with a
>> > > decent coffee and snack I want are lousy - those involved in ripping
>> > > fees for financial services I'd be happier were a government utility
>> > > are generally better. What might the motivation to work be stripped
>> > > of the necessity of income? Some doubt there would be any.
>>
>> > > I'm about to do a short course so I can assess management apprentices
>> > > - something I've done for 20 years (I even wrote and enacted some of
>> > > the pilots). The only motivation is to be able to be a fee-taker -
>> > > with some thought my students at least aren't being stuck with $70K
>> > > debt. I wouldn't have taken well to the Villa Borghese being full of
>> > > lager louts last weekend. It's hard to imagine what society would be
>> > > without money-differentiation. Neighbours are beggared throughout the
>> > > animal kingdom in order that a few get art and even good nosh with
>> > > friends.
>>
>> > > Stephen Pinker has a book out on human pacification at the moment -
>> > > suggesting our institutions get some things right. I tend to agree -
>> > > but I'm also sure we are screwing up the land of plenty.
>>
>> > > On 1 Nov, 07:09, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> that is very true but where would they get cheap to essentially slave
>> > >> labor,, they need to put the gold in their pockets so they can pay
>> > >> homage to their god the golden calf..
>> > >> Allan
>>
>> > >> On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 11:35 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> > The good dream side of this is what you say Lee. But the thought
>> > >> > experiment is a challenge to current ideology. I've noticed over the
>> > >> > years that the most passionate defenders of the protestant work ethic
>> > >> > don't do jobs involving hard work for low pay.
>>
>> > >> > On Oct 26, 2:19 pm, Lee Douglas <leerevdoug...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> >> Ahhhh robot heaven is my ideal.
>>
>> > >> >> It gets rid of money as nobody would need to barter goods or services
>> > >> >> to survive, it would mean that humans can spend more time growing and
>> > >> >> learning, and can you imagine the various works of art, in all media?
>>
>> > >> >> Now of course the thing to consider is the transitional period, and I guess
>> > >> >> this is Archy's main thrust. Our history shows us that
>> > >> >> such transitional periods are fraught with violence and upheaval, I suspect
>> > >> >> a move to robotic heaven would be little different.
>>
>> > >> >> So we have robots a plenty and much work going on in robotics. I suspect
>> > >> >> the next thing we'll have to sort is robots that make and repair robots.
>>
>> > >> >> Should we concentrate then on food and water production and distribution?
>> > >> >> Why yes I think we should.
>>
>> > >> >> Get that done and then nobody has to pay for food or water, ahhh now we are
>> > >> >> getting somewhere. A world full of thinkers and artists!
>>
>> > >> >> Energy next?
>>
>> > >> >> On Wednesday, 19 September 2012 22:56:36 UTC+1, archytas wrote:
>>
>> > >> >> > Thought experiments are devices of the imagination used to investigate
>> > >> >> > the nature of things. Thought experimenting often takes place when the
>> > >> >> > method of variation is employed in entertaining imaginative
>> > >> >> > suppositions. They are used for diverse reasons in a variety of areas,
>> > >> >> > including economics, history, mathematics, philosophy, and physics.
>> > >> >> > Most often thought experiments are communicated in narrative form,
>> > >> >> > sometimes through media like a diagram. Thought experiments should be
>> > >> >> > distinguished from thinking about experiments, from merely imagining
>> > >> >> > any experiments to be conducted outside the imagination, and from
>> > >> >> > psychological experiments with thoughts. They should also be
>> > >> >> > distinguished from counterfactual reasoning in general, as they seem
>> > >> >> > to require an experimental element.
>> > >> >> >http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/thought-experiment/
>>
>> > >> >> > One I like is the notion of robot heaven. It's easy enough to imagine
>> > >> >> > a time when machines grow our food, build our shelter and do our
>> > >> >> > work. The interesting stuff comes in thinking what this would mean
>> > >> >> > for wealth distribution and the nature of society. What work would be
>> > >> >> > left to do? One can also wonder what place any of our work ethics
>> > >> >> > would have in such a society. There may be some deconstructive effect
>> > >> >> > on just what current work ideologies are in place for.
>>
>> > >> >> > One of the great improvements technology brought to my life is more or
>> > >> >> > less never having to go into a bank. The only real innovations in
>> > >> >> > banking are the ATM and electronic banking. This kind of technology
>> > >> >> > and similar in agriculture and industry fundamentally reduce the
>> > >> >> > amount of human effort to grow and make what we need. We are in
>> > >> >> > partial state of robot heaven.
>>
>> > >> >> > Our ideologies are not up to speed. Real unemployment is massive and
>> > >> >> > education does little to provide job skills. We are sold life-styles
>> > >> >> > and products by insane advertising. Job creation seems to be in
>> > >> >> > perverse areas like financial services or bringing back attended gas-
>> > >> >> > pumps. With more efficient production we should be able to afford a
>> > >> >> > bigger social sector and I can't for the life of me understand why we
>> > >> >> > allow competition through crap wages and conditions.
>>
>> > >> >> > A great deal of what we pay for could be available more or less free.
>> > >> >> > Educational content and utility banking are examples - these are areas
>> > >> >> > that could be ratinalised like agriculture and manufacturing.
>> > >> >> > Millions of jobs would go. We should be asking why jobs are so
>> > >> >> > central to out thinking on wealth distribution and how we might
>> > >> >> > encourage work without the rat race.
>>
>> > >> > --
>>
>> > >> --
>> > >> (
>> > >> )
>> > >> |_D Allan
>>
>> > >> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>>
>> > >> I am a Natural Airgunner -
>>
>> > >> Full of Hot Air & Ready To Expel It Quickly.
>>
>> > > --
>>
>> > --
>> > (
>> > )
>> > |_D Allan
>>
>> > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>>
>> > I am a Natural Airgunner -
>>
>> > Full of Hot Air & Ready To Expel It Quickly.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > - Show quoted text -
>
> --
>
>
>

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