Re: Mind's Eye Re: thought experiments

The general principles are examined here - http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/justice-distributive/

On 2 Nov, 16:07, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is from Wiki (which calls for a re-write less partisan):
> The MONDRAGON Corporation is a corporation and federation of worker
> cooperatives based in the Basque region of Spain. Founded in the town
> of Mondragón in 1956, its origin is linked to the activity of a modest
> technical college and a small workshop producing paraffin heaters.
> Currently it is the seventh largest Spanish company in terms of asset
> turnover and the leading business group in the Basque Country. At the
> end of 2011 it was providing employment for 83,869 people working in
> 256 companies in four areas of activity: Finance, Industry, Retail and
> Knowledge. The MONDRAGON Co-operatives operate in accordance with a
> business model based on People and the Sovereignty of Labour, which
> has made it possible to develop highly participative companies rooted
> in solidarity, with a strong social dimension but without neglecting
> business excellence. The Co-operatives are owned by their worker-
> members and power is based on the principle of one person, one vote.
> [2]
>
> On 2 Nov, 16:02, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
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> > Aristotle talked about labour value and Plato thought no one should
> > earn more than 6 times the basic.  David Graeber's 'Debt' is a long,
> > historical sweep.  'Stone Age Economics' would throw a lot of ideas up
> > (modern economics being based on a false thought experiment by Smith
> > etc).  The social epidemiologist Wilkinson wrote an interesting book
> > on health and social inequality.  The literature is vast rigs - but it
> > always is.
> > I'd say modern economics does separate value/worth from remuneration -
> > JK Galbraith wrote a lot on the financial system as merely a means to
> > transferring wealth to the rich.  The question to me is more on the
> > lines of 'can we cut off the parasite' without losing the motivation
> > to work?  This would be a return to labour value.  The Basque
> > cooperative (Mondragon) runs without vast profit-taking.  I've been,
> > liked the ethos - but admit it's not without problems.
>
> > On 2 Nov, 00:28, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > Have you or Archytas some examples from human history when there were
> > > not class and income disparity? Dicken's Victorian England? Robber
> > > barons and the Gilded Age? The Soviet Union? Today's China? Most of
> > > the planet? I don't believe there is a work requirement for welfare,
> > > is there? Are there valid reasons for the difference in earnings
> > > between mental and physical work? What are they? Can you really
> > > separate value/worth from remuneration- mostly financial- although I
> > > suppose the military and saints get by with medals and sainthood plus
> > > a pension or Heaven. The female issues are another subject.
>
> > > On Nov 1, 2:34 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Well Neil  I have been doing lot of thinking about the banking
> > > > problems,,   I find what is not making sense is kind of a strange
> > > > problem
>
> > > > Personally I have a hard time of thinking of people as evil or bad..
> > > > and i am not a good writer  and something you said got me off in
> > > > attempting to write a piece on how to worship and pay homage to the
> > > > golden calf...   well what dawned on me is that what the real problem
> > > > is the lose of simple morality,,,  people like banksters have lost
> > > > simple morality..  I do not think that when they maximize their
> > > > profits by not paying interests that is really due to clients and
> > > > customers so they can get excessive wages and bonuses
>
> > > > I have heard the excuse that there is nothing they can do about it,,
> > > > realizing the failure to pay interest  that is due  in reality is
> > > > stealing..  justifing it does not make it  okay to steal.
> > > > Allan
>
> > > > On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 1:24 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > That's one of the crucial issues Allan - the original free-table was
> > > > > based in a slave economy.  Wages involved in providing me with a
> > > > > decent coffee and snack I want are lousy - those involved in ripping
> > > > > fees for financial services I'd be happier were a government utility
> > > > > are generally better.  What might the motivation to work be stripped
> > > > > of the necessity of income?  Some doubt there would be any.
>
> > > > > I'm about to do a short course so I can assess management apprentices
> > > > > - something I've done for 20 years (I even wrote and enacted some of
> > > > > the pilots).  The only motivation is to be able to be a fee-taker -
> > > > > with some thought my students at least aren't being stuck with $70K
> > > > > debt.  I wouldn't have taken well to the Villa Borghese being full of
> > > > > lager louts last weekend.  It's hard to imagine what society would be
> > > > > without money-differentiation.  Neighbours are beggared throughout the
> > > > > animal kingdom in order that a few get art and even good nosh with
> > > > > friends.
>
> > > > > Stephen Pinker has a book out on human pacification at the moment -
> > > > > suggesting our institutions get some things right.  I tend to agree -
> > > > > but I'm also sure we are screwing up the land of plenty.
>
> > > > > On 1 Nov, 07:09, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >> that is very true but where would they get cheap to essentially slave
> > > > >> labor,,  they need to put the gold in their pockets so they can pay
> > > > >> homage to their god the golden calf..
> > > > >> Allan
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> > > > >> On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 11:35 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >> > The good dream side of this is what you say Lee.  But the thought
> > > > >> > experiment is a challenge to current ideology.  I've noticed over the
> > > > >> > years that the most passionate defenders of the protestant work ethic
> > > > >> > don't do jobs involving hard work for low pay.
>
> > > > >> > On Oct 26, 2:19 pm, Lee Douglas <leerevdoug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >> >> Ahhhh robot heaven is my ideal.
>
> > > > >> >> It gets rid of money as nobody would need to barter goods or services
> > > > >> >> to survive, it would mean that humans can spend more time growing and
> > > > >> >> learning, and can you imagine the various works of art, in all media?
>
> > > > >> >> Now of course the thing to consider is the transitional period, and I guess
> > > > >> >> this is Archy's main thrust.  Our history shows us that
> > > > >> >> such transitional periods are fraught with violence and upheaval, I suspect
> > > > >> >> a move to robotic heaven would be little different.
>
> > > > >> >> So we have robots a plenty and much work going on in robotics.  I suspect
> > > > >> >> the next thing we'll have to sort is robots that make and repair robots.
>
> > > > >> >> Should we concentrate then on food and water production and distribution?
> > > > >> >>  Why yes I think we should.
>
> > > > >> >> Get that done and then nobody has to pay for food or water, ahhh now we are
> > > > >> >> getting somewhere.  A world full of thinkers and artists!
>
> > > > >> >> Energy next?
>
> > > > >> >> On Wednesday, 19 September 2012 22:56:36 UTC+1, archytas wrote:
>
> > > > >> >> > Thought experiments are devices of the imagination used to investigate
> > > > >> >> > the nature of things. Thought experimenting often takes place when the
> > > > >> >> > method of variation is employed in entertaining imaginative
> > > > >> >> > suppositions. They are used for diverse reasons in a variety of areas,
> > > > >> >> > including economics, history, mathematics, philosophy, and physics.
> > > > >> >> > Most often thought experiments are communicated in narrative form,
> > > > >> >> > sometimes through media like a diagram. Thought experiments should be
> > > > >> >> > distinguished from thinking about experiments, from merely imagining
> > > > >> >> > any experiments to be conducted outside the imagination, and from
> > > > >> >> > psychological experiments with thoughts. They should also be
> > > > >> >> > distinguished from counterfactual reasoning in general, as they seem
> > > > >> >> > to require an experimental element.
> > > > >> >> >http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/thought-experiment/
>
> > > > >> >> > One I like is the notion of robot heaven.  It's easy enough to imagine
> > > > >> >> > a time when machines grow our food, build our shelter and do our
> > > > >> >> > work.  The interesting stuff comes in thinking what this would mean
> > > > >> >> > for wealth distribution and the nature of society.  What work would be
> > > > >> >> > left to do?  One can also wonder what place any of our work ethics
> > > > >> >> > would have in such a society.  There may be some deconstructive effect
> > > > >> >> > on just what current work ideologies are in place for.
>
> > > > >> >> > One of the great improvements technology brought to my life is more or
> > > > >> >> > less never having to go into a bank.  The only real innovations in
> > > > >> >> > banking are the ATM and electronic banking.  This kind of technology
> > > > >> >> > and similar in agriculture and industry fundamentally reduce the
> > > > >> >> > amount of human effort to grow and make what we need.  We are in
> > > > >> >> > partial state of robot heaven.
>
> > > > >> >> > Our ideologies are not up to speed.  Real unemployment is massive and
> > > > >> >> > education does little to provide job skills.  We are sold life-styles
> > > > >> >> > and products by insane advertising.  Job creation seems to be in
> > > > >> >> > perverse areas like financial services or bringing back attended gas-
> > > > >> >> > pumps.  With more efficient production we should be able to afford a
> > > > >> >> > bigger social sector and I can't for the life of me understand why we
> > > > >> >> > allow competition through crap wages and conditions.
>
> > > > >> >> > A great deal of what we pay for could be available more or less free.
> > > > >> >> > Educational content and utility banking are examples -
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