Re: Mind's Eye Re: thought experiments

This is from Wiki (which calls for a re-write less partisan):
The MONDRAGON Corporation is a corporation and federation of worker
cooperatives based in the Basque region of Spain. Founded in the town
of Mondragón in 1956, its origin is linked to the activity of a modest
technical college and a small workshop producing paraffin heaters.
Currently it is the seventh largest Spanish company in terms of asset
turnover and the leading business group in the Basque Country. At the
end of 2011 it was providing employment for 83,869 people working in
256 companies in four areas of activity: Finance, Industry, Retail and
Knowledge. The MONDRAGON Co-operatives operate in accordance with a
business model based on People and the Sovereignty of Labour, which
has made it possible to develop highly participative companies rooted
in solidarity, with a strong social dimension but without neglecting
business excellence. The Co-operatives are owned by their worker-
members and power is based on the principle of one person, one vote.
[2]

On 2 Nov, 16:02, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Aristotle talked about labour value and Plato thought no one should
> earn more than 6 times the basic.  David Graeber's 'Debt' is a long,
> historical sweep.  'Stone Age Economics' would throw a lot of ideas up
> (modern economics being based on a false thought experiment by Smith
> etc).  The social epidemiologist Wilkinson wrote an interesting book
> on health and social inequality.  The literature is vast rigs - but it
> always is.
> I'd say modern economics does separate value/worth from remuneration -
> JK Galbraith wrote a lot on the financial system as merely a means to
> transferring wealth to the rich.  The question to me is more on the
> lines of 'can we cut off the parasite' without losing the motivation
> to work?  This would be a return to labour value.  The Basque
> cooperative (Mondragon) runs without vast profit-taking.  I've been,
> liked the ethos - but admit it's not without problems.
>
> On 2 Nov, 00:28, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
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> > Have you or Archytas some examples from human history when there were
> > not class and income disparity? Dicken's Victorian England? Robber
> > barons and the Gilded Age? The Soviet Union? Today's China? Most of
> > the planet? I don't believe there is a work requirement for welfare,
> > is there? Are there valid reasons for the difference in earnings
> > between mental and physical work? What are they? Can you really
> > separate value/worth from remuneration- mostly financial- although I
> > suppose the military and saints get by with medals and sainthood plus
> > a pension or Heaven. The female issues are another subject.
>
> > On Nov 1, 2:34 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Well Neil  I have been doing lot of thinking about the banking
> > > problems,,   I find what is not making sense is kind of a strange
> > > problem
>
> > > Personally I have a hard time of thinking of people as evil or bad..
> > > and i am not a good writer  and something you said got me off in
> > > attempting to write a piece on how to worship and pay homage to the
> > > golden calf...   well what dawned on me is that what the real problem
> > > is the lose of simple morality,,,  people like banksters have lost
> > > simple morality..  I do not think that when they maximize their
> > > profits by not paying interests that is really due to clients and
> > > customers so they can get excessive wages and bonuses
>
> > > I have heard the excuse that there is nothing they can do about it,,
> > > realizing the failure to pay interest  that is due  in reality is
> > > stealing..  justifing it does not make it  okay to steal.
> > > Allan
>
> > > On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 1:24 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > That's one of the crucial issues Allan - the original free-table was
> > > > based in a slave economy.  Wages involved in providing me with a
> > > > decent coffee and snack I want are lousy - those involved in ripping
> > > > fees for financial services I'd be happier were a government utility
> > > > are generally better.  What might the motivation to work be stripped
> > > > of the necessity of income?  Some doubt there would be any.
>
> > > > I'm about to do a short course so I can assess management apprentices
> > > > - something I've done for 20 years (I even wrote and enacted some of
> > > > the pilots).  The only motivation is to be able to be a fee-taker -
> > > > with some thought my students at least aren't being stuck with $70K
> > > > debt.  I wouldn't have taken well to the Villa Borghese being full of
> > > > lager louts last weekend.  It's hard to imagine what society would be
> > > > without money-differentiation.  Neighbours are beggared throughout the
> > > > animal kingdom in order that a few get art and even good nosh with
> > > > friends.
>
> > > > Stephen Pinker has a book out on human pacification at the moment -
> > > > suggesting our institutions get some things right.  I tend to agree -
> > > > but I'm also sure we are screwing up the land of plenty.
>
> > > > On 1 Nov, 07:09, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> that is very true but where would they get cheap to essentially slave
> > > >> labor,,  they need to put the gold in their pockets so they can pay
> > > >> homage to their god the golden calf..
> > > >> Allan
>
> > > >> On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 11:35 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> > The good dream side of this is what you say Lee.  But the thought
> > > >> > experiment is a challenge to current ideology.  I've noticed over the
> > > >> > years that the most passionate defenders of the protestant work ethic
> > > >> > don't do jobs involving hard work for low pay.
>
> > > >> > On Oct 26, 2:19 pm, Lee Douglas <leerevdoug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> >> Ahhhh robot heaven is my ideal.
>
> > > >> >> It gets rid of money as nobody would need to barter goods or services
> > > >> >> to survive, it would mean that humans can spend more time growing and
> > > >> >> learning, and can you imagine the various works of art, in all media?
>
> > > >> >> Now of course the thing to consider is the transitional period, and I guess
> > > >> >> this is Archy's main thrust.  Our history shows us that
> > > >> >> such transitional periods are fraught with violence and upheaval, I suspect
> > > >> >> a move to robotic heaven would be little different.
>
> > > >> >> So we have robots a plenty and much work going on in robotics.  I suspect
> > > >> >> the next thing we'll have to sort is robots that make and repair robots.
>
> > > >> >> Should we concentrate then on food and water production and distribution?
> > > >> >>  Why yes I think we should.
>
> > > >> >> Get that done and then nobody has to pay for food or water, ahhh now we are
> > > >> >> getting somewhere.  A world full of thinkers and artists!
>
> > > >> >> Energy next?
>
> > > >> >> On Wednesday, 19 September 2012 22:56:36 UTC+1, archytas wrote:
>
> > > >> >> > Thought experiments are devices of the imagination used to investigate
> > > >> >> > the nature of things. Thought experimenting often takes place when the
> > > >> >> > method of variation is employed in entertaining imaginative
> > > >> >> > suppositions. They are used for diverse reasons in a variety of areas,
> > > >> >> > including economics, history, mathematics, philosophy, and physics.
> > > >> >> > Most often thought experiments are communicated in narrative form,
> > > >> >> > sometimes through media like a diagram. Thought experiments should be
> > > >> >> > distinguished from thinking about experiments, from merely imagining
> > > >> >> > any experiments to be conducted outside the imagination, and from
> > > >> >> > psychological experiments with thoughts. They should also be
> > > >> >> > distinguished from counterfactual reasoning in general, as they seem
> > > >> >> > to require an experimental element.
> > > >> >> >http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/thought-experiment/
>
> > > >> >> > One I like is the notion of robot heaven.  It's easy enough to imagine
> > > >> >> > a time when machines grow our food, build our shelter and do our
> > > >> >> > work.  The interesting stuff comes in thinking what this would mean
> > > >> >> > for wealth distribution and the nature of society.  What work would be
> > > >> >> > left to do?  One can also wonder what place any of our work ethics
> > > >> >> > would have in such a society.  There may be some deconstructive effect
> > > >> >> > on just what current work ideologies are in place for.
>
> > > >> >> > One of the great improvements technology brought to my life is more or
> > > >> >> > less never having to go into a bank.  The only real innovations in
> > > >> >> > banking are the ATM and electronic banking.  This kind of technology
> > > >> >> > and similar in agriculture and industry fundamentally reduce the
> > > >> >> > amount of human effort to grow and make what we need.  We are in
> > > >> >> > partial state of robot heaven.
>
> > > >> >> > Our ideologies are not up to speed.  Real unemployment is massive and
> > > >> >> > education does little to provide job skills.  We are sold life-styles
> > > >> >> > and products by insane advertising.  Job creation seems to be in
> > > >> >> > perverse areas like financial services or bringing back attended gas-
> > > >> >> > pumps.  With more efficient production we should be able to afford a
> > > >> >> > bigger social sector and I can't for the life of me understand why we
> > > >> >> > allow competition through crap wages and conditions.
>
> > > >> >> > A great deal of what we pay for could be available more or less free.
> > > >> >> > Educational content and utility banking are examples - these are areas
> > > >> >> > that could be ratinalised like agriculture and manufacturing.
> > > >> >> > Millions of jobs would go.  We should be asking why jobs are so
> > > >> >> > central to out thinking on wealth distribution and how we might
> > > >> >> > encourage work without the rat race.
>
> > > >> > --
>
> > > >> --
> > > >>  (
> > > >>   )
> > > >> |_D Allan
>
> > > >> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> > > >> I am a Natural Airgunner -
>
> > > >>  Full of Hot Air & Ready To Expel It Quickly.
>
> > > > --
>
> > > --
> > >  (
> > >   )
> > > |_D Allan
>
> > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> > > I am a Natural Airgunner -
>
> > >  Full of Hot Air & Ready To Expel It Quickly.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -

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