Re: Mind's Eye Re: A Call To Democratic Arms?

In the US there is a hidden party called the elitist party.. the
republican party since reagan have become nothing more that a puppet..
that is whay you see the lack of cooperation between the parties ..
to be republican you have to be a hoarding rich.... sad to see but
true..sometimes I wonder if they have lo stall spirituality
;o) Lost souls ...hmm don't know, I personally .don't want to be
there.the price is far to high.
Allan



On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 4:01 AM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have little doubt that is a likely, needed route Allan - we are
> currently back on the road to debt peonage. One can argue for this
> against capitalist and socialist outcomes. But why is there no
> political party standing for office on this basis? UK Labour Party
> candidates stood on issues like democratic foreign policy in 1920 and
> even some Nazis ran on 'free Eurasian labour market' tickets. There
> are people making this argument in pretty full terms, but there is no
> party to vote for in any of our countries. In the meantime, Goldman
> Sachs, JP Morgan and the rest are buying commodities to hoard,
> including food, through exchange traded funds licensed by our
> governments (SEC etc.)
>
> .
>
> On Jan 19, 10:45 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The only way I see an honest government is strictly control in
>> influence of corporations and spin doctors with all of their dealings
>> involving government being recorded both video and audio with these
>> being open to public scrutiny,, not just special commissions,, Also
>> corporation presidents with the board of directors need to serve
>> prison sentences when their companies break the law,, once convicted
>> no longer be able to act as advisers or hold the offices of
>> corporations.. ending all corporations for lawyers so the can no
>> longer hide..
>> the enforcement of corporate need to be brought into effect instead of
>> letting them slide.
>> nasty huh...
>> Allan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 9:57 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > We call ourselves democracies - the classic was perhaps the DDR (East
>> > Germany), famous for strange athletes, Stasi and the Trabant. But
>> > shouldn't we expect the Doublespeak Allan? Most of us don't really
>> > want to be involved in politics - it's a bit like running the coffee
>> > fund in a school common room. Like Gabby I tend to vote Green - but
>> > this is really about registering my protest that the main parties are
>> > now scum. We could, as Andrew suggested, have a much less
>> > representative politics and make more decisions ourselves. In the UK
>> > we should already have decentralised from London and become much more
>> > electronic in base. It must be very easy for 'foreign powers' to
>> > infiltrate our main political parties and they are all stacked out
>> > with highly suspicious suit horses. There has long been no one for me
>> > to vote for. We need revolutionary ideas about the system and I don't
>> > mean bombs, capes, dubious mustaches and a "temporary" dictatorship of
>> > the proles. This is why I think radical change in our understanding
>> > and then technology of argument might help. You astutely note we
>> > don't have any real democracies - but were earlier clinging to the
>> > notion of voting involving argument - I'm saying that ain't 'real'
>> > either.
>>
>> > On 19 Jan, 07:52, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> I don't see how you can call any government a democracy .. the USA is
>> >> a republic and I do not see how you can call any government when
>> >> leadership keep palling around with the wealth chasing the golden
>> >> calf.
>> >> Allan
>>
>> >> On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 1:21 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > Computing has brought about changes in maths on grounds of speed in
>> >> > calculation that humans can't achieve in lifetimes - patterns appear
>> >> > in massive iterations we simply don't have time to do. I don't have
>> >> > much problem with this if, say, it lets us devise flight plans to
>> >> > Mars. They are increasingly used to have information first, perhaps
>> >> > like someone using a telescope to spot which ship is coming home in
>> >> > order to unload what stock of goods one has while prices are still
>> >> > high before its goods are docked. I doubt the entire use of the
>> >> > technology in economics. In some areas of science we are not sure
>> >> > what the computers are telling us and they appear to be "thinking".I
>> >> > have taught many people to drive spreadsheets and databases - though
>> >> > few really learn to manipulate new questions into them or design
>> >> > useful reporting from them.
>> >> > Rigs hits one of the nails of democracy on the head and Andrew drives
>> >> > in another. Unlike Gabby I tend to view faith as a weakness. The
>> >> > vinegar and oil approach is probably cast as incommensurability in
>> >> > philosophy - though combined as salad dressing Andrew's meat is my
>> >> > poison. I suspect much allegedly incommensurate is merely
>> >> > incompatible due to definition. Chemists could no doubt produce a
>> >> > solution with both oil and vinegar in it. Wiles' solution to Fermat's
>> >> > last theorem bridges modular and elliptic equations and Sneed and
>> >> > Ludwig have used set theory to show compatibility between older and
>> >> > modern physics (scientists mostly believed this anyway).
>>
>> >> > The question is whether there is something we can apply to the sad
>> >> > state of democracy that keeps the egalitarianism better than our very
>> >> > peculiar voting systems. If we had an "argument machine" we might be
>> >> > able t get past Crusade/Jihad, Sunni/Shia, Catholic/Protestant, Hindi/
>> >> > Muslim and so on - and get into what is common exploitation on all
>> >> > sides - the human aspects rigs points out - and to change to the more
>> >> > positive ones. I may even share (something like) Gabby's
>> >> > 'frustration' with agnostics - though an explication of this n both
>> >> > sides would be long.
>>
>> >> > This is tough territory - and very unlike the spiv Blair uttering
>> >> > 'education, education, education' (something I first heard in East
>> >> > Germany) and the ease with which we are gulled by such blandishments
>> >> > with no thought of how we can actually create graduate jobs 50:50 and
>> >> > what such a society would be. We need to know more about what buttons
>> >> > the likes of Blair and adverts push. I suspect part of the answer
>> >> > would be the creation of technology to support a level playing field -
>> >> > but as I write this I'm fairly sure we are being warmed up for war
>> >> > (it's a bit like Jung's dream).
>>
>> >> > On Jan 18, 11:11 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> Vinegar and oil are prime reasons I don't order salad when out - hate
>> >> >> them both! I agree entirely with Gabby on "political argument" and
>> >> >> would say in addition academic argument can be as bad and the majority
>> >> >> of it is. When asked most people say they vote on the economy - when
>> >> >> further asked what the economy is they are clueless. One of us at
>> >> >> least will need a steel claw to make a success of Al's lair and our
>> >> >> 'freedom through world domination' scheme.
>>
>> >> >> On Jan 18, 3:46 pm, andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> >> > Faith and reason, like vinegar and oil (my favorite salad dressing) ,go
>> >> >> > together and complement each other really well. Like the bible teaches, the
>> >> >> > knowledge of good and evil or technology is a double edged sword. You can
>> >> >> > not have one without the other. Like playing with matches, it is not
>> >> >> > recommended for children. As for teaching morals, I do not think it can be
>> >> >> > taught by teachers. Education and democracy if used morally can and does
>> >> >> > fill empty bellies.I agree with you Rigs about democracy. Democracy as we
>> >> >> > have it in all democratic countries (except Switzerland) lasts only for a
>> >> >> > day every 4 or 5 years when we elect representatives with meaningless
>> >> >> > promises to represent us.
>>
>> >> >> > On Friday, January 18, 2013 12:54:01 PM UTC+1, rigs wrote:
>>
>> >> >> > > Faith and Reason are like vinegar and oil. The Enlightenment has
>> >> >> > > brought us hence- the new Dark Ages? Technology is not a solution
>> >> >> > > because it can be corrupted. I have much in common with a Roman matron
>> >> >> > > of the 4th C. as I watch/read of the new barbarians. My modern
>> >> >> > > conveniences are simply mechanical slaves. It does little good to
>> >> >> > > teach ethics/morals when other parts of our supposed united world are
>> >> >> > > not in sync. Education/democracy will not fill an empty belly or
>> >> >> > > replenish wasted croplands and raw materials. Throwing money at
>> >> >> > > unstable countries will not rescue us or them (Egypt) nor will
>> >> >> > > allowing disasters to take their course win us friends (Syria).
>> >> >> > > Democracy has become a bloated centralized authority so the political
>> >> >> > > differences are meaningless. The patterns of human history have
>> >> >> > > changed very little, unfortunately- it still remains about greed,
>> >> >> > > power and hubris.
>>
>> >> >> > > On Jan 17, 7:59 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> > > > Kaggle is also up and running, apparently producing better than expert
>> >> >> > > > results from data crunching. The project, whether a Tower of Babel
>> >> >> > > > confronting god or not, is underway.
>>
>> >> >> > > > On Jan 18, 12:22 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> >> > > > > At last we discover the lair from which you intend to launch 'Dr No'
>> >> >> > > > > plans Al!
>>
>> >> >> > > > > One can argue that democracy already uses a 'non-argument technology'
>> >> >> > > > > called voting.
>>
>> >> >> > > > > In many respects Allan is right on argument being about reinforcing an
>> >> >> > > > > individual's point of view.
>>
>> >> >> > > > > Studies of the Internet show the most likely reaction to facts is
>> >> >> > > > > backfire as people dig in on their original position.
>>
>> >> >> > > > > Does anyone know 'where' human decision-making takes place - much
>> >> >> > > > > modern testing indicates it comes before anything rational (the social
>> >> >> > > > > animal thesis). Adverts are highly irrational, political bull
>> >> >> > > > > simplistic and often not true - FDR matched others in rhetoric on not
>> >> >> > > > > letting the English fight to the last American to get elected. Would
>> >> >> > > > > any of us want to claim how WW2 came about - I suspect not - but even
>> >> >> > > > > what we might know is likely more factual than those who think the
>> >> >> > > > > Soviets were on the other side. Universal education hasn't helped
>> >> >> > > > > much on fact bases in individuals.
>>
>> >> >> > > > > One has to suspect if we could build a bulldung detector it wouldn't
>> >> >> > > > > switch off until after we shot the last politician and detergent
>> >> >> > > > > salesman. I don't expect we can build one. Plato's suggested
>> >> >> > > > > technology was to train Guardians - I'd prefer something much less
>> >> >> > > > > elitist and socially constructed.
>>
>> >> >> > > > > Currently, we don't even have reliable voice to text - but statistical
>> >> >> > > > > engines are reliable in translation. There are many problems - not
>>
>> ...
>>
>> read more »
>
> --
>
>
>



--
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|_D Allan

Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..

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