Re: Mind's Eye Re: A Call To Democratic Arms?

sorry I can not focus had an episode this morning.. Liked what you
said Neil it is very true.
Allan

On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Allan H <allanh1946@gmail.com> wrote:
> In the US there is a hidden party called the elitist party.. the
> republican party since reagan have become nothing more that a puppet..
> that is whay you see the lack of cooperation between the parties ..
> to be republican you have to be a hoarding rich.... sad to see but
> true..sometimes I wonder if they have lo stall spirituality
> ;o) Lost souls ...hmm don't know, I personally .don't want to be
> there.the price is far to high.
> Allan
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 4:01 AM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I have little doubt that is a likely, needed route Allan - we are
>> currently back on the road to debt peonage. One can argue for this
>> against capitalist and socialist outcomes. But why is there no
>> political party standing for office on this basis? UK Labour Party
>> candidates stood on issues like democratic foreign policy in 1920 and
>> even some Nazis ran on 'free Eurasian labour market' tickets. There
>> are people making this argument in pretty full terms, but there is no
>> party to vote for in any of our countries. In the meantime, Goldman
>> Sachs, JP Morgan and the rest are buying commodities to hoard,
>> including food, through exchange traded funds licensed by our
>> governments (SEC etc.)
>>
>> .
>>
>> On Jan 19, 10:45 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> The only way I see an honest government is strictly control in
>>> influence of corporations and spin doctors with all of their dealings
>>> involving government being recorded both video and audio with these
>>> being open to public scrutiny,, not just special commissions,, Also
>>> corporation presidents with the board of directors need to serve
>>> prison sentences when their companies break the law,, once convicted
>>> no longer be able to act as advisers or hold the offices of
>>> corporations.. ending all corporations for lawyers so the can no
>>> longer hide..
>>> the enforcement of corporate need to be brought into effect instead of
>>> letting them slide.
>>> nasty huh...
>>> Allan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 9:57 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > We call ourselves democracies - the classic was perhaps the DDR (East
>>> > Germany), famous for strange athletes, Stasi and the Trabant. But
>>> > shouldn't we expect the Doublespeak Allan? Most of us don't really
>>> > want to be involved in politics - it's a bit like running the coffee
>>> > fund in a school common room. Like Gabby I tend to vote Green - but
>>> > this is really about registering my protest that the main parties are
>>> > now scum. We could, as Andrew suggested, have a much less
>>> > representative politics and make more decisions ourselves. In the UK
>>> > we should already have decentralised from London and become much more
>>> > electronic in base. It must be very easy for 'foreign powers' to
>>> > infiltrate our main political parties and they are all stacked out
>>> > with highly suspicious suit horses. There has long been no one for me
>>> > to vote for. We need revolutionary ideas about the system and I don't
>>> > mean bombs, capes, dubious mustaches and a "temporary" dictatorship of
>>> > the proles. This is why I think radical change in our understanding
>>> > and then technology of argument might help. You astutely note we
>>> > don't have any real democracies - but were earlier clinging to the
>>> > notion of voting involving argument - I'm saying that ain't 'real'
>>> > either.
>>>
>>> > On 19 Jan, 07:52, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> I don't see how you can call any government a democracy .. the USA is
>>> >> a republic and I do not see how you can call any government when
>>> >> leadership keep palling around with the wealth chasing the golden
>>> >> calf.
>>> >> Allan
>>>
>>> >> On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 1:21 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> > Computing has brought about changes in maths on grounds of speed in
>>> >> > calculation that humans can't achieve in lifetimes - patterns appear
>>> >> > in massive iterations we simply don't have time to do. I don't have
>>> >> > much problem with this if, say, it lets us devise flight plans to
>>> >> > Mars. They are increasingly used to have information first, perhaps
>>> >> > like someone using a telescope to spot which ship is coming home in
>>> >> > order to unload what stock of goods one has while prices are still
>>> >> > high before its goods are docked. I doubt the entire use of the
>>> >> > technology in economics. In some areas of science we are not sure
>>> >> > what the computers are telling us and they appear to be "thinking".I
>>> >> > have taught many people to drive spreadsheets and databases - though
>>> >> > few really learn to manipulate new questions into them or design
>>> >> > useful reporting from them.
>>> >> > Rigs hits one of the nails of democracy on the head and Andrew drives
>>> >> > in another. Unlike Gabby I tend to view faith as a weakness. The
>>> >> > vinegar and oil approach is probably cast as incommensurability in
>>> >> > philosophy - though combined as salad dressing Andrew's meat is my
>>> >> > poison. I suspect much allegedly incommensurate is merely
>>> >> > incompatible due to definition. Chemists could no doubt produce a
>>> >> > solution with both oil and vinegar in it. Wiles' solution to Fermat's
>>> >> > last theorem bridges modular and elliptic equations and Sneed and
>>> >> > Ludwig have used set theory to show compatibility between older and
>>> >> > modern physics (scientists mostly believed this anyway).
>>>
>>> >> > The question is whether there is something we can apply to the sad
>>> >> > state of democracy that keeps the egalitarianism better than our very
>>> >> > peculiar voting systems. If we had an "argument machine" we might be
>>> >> > able t get past Crusade/Jihad, Sunni/Shia, Catholic/Protestant, Hindi/
>>> >> > Muslim and so on - and get into what is common exploitation on all
>>> >> > sides - the human aspects rigs points out - and to change to the more
>>> >> > positive ones. I may even share (something like) Gabby's
>>> >> > 'frustration' with agnostics - though an explication of this n both
>>> >> > sides would be long.
>>>
>>> >> > This is tough territory - and very unlike the spiv Blair uttering
>>> >> > 'education, education, education' (something I first heard in East
>>> >> > Germany) and the ease with which we are gulled by such blandishments
>>> >> > with no thought of how we can actually create graduate jobs 50:50 and
>>> >> > what such a society would be. We need to know more about what buttons
>>> >> > the likes of Blair and adverts push. I suspect part of the answer
>>> >> > would be the creation of technology to support a level playing field -
>>> >> > but as I write this I'm fairly sure we are being warmed up for war
>>> >> > (it's a bit like Jung's dream).
>>>
>>> >> > On Jan 18, 11:11 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >> Vinegar and oil are prime reasons I don't order salad when out - hate
>>> >> >> them both! I agree entirely with Gabby on "political argument" and
>>> >> >> would say in addition academic argument can be as bad and the majority
>>> >> >> of it is. When asked most people say they vote on the economy - when
>>> >> >> further asked what the economy is they are clueless. One of us at
>>> >> >> least will need a steel claw to make a success of Al's lair and our
>>> >> >> 'freedom through world domination' scheme.
>>>
>>> >> >> On Jan 18, 3:46 pm, andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >> >> > Faith and reason, like vinegar and oil (my favorite salad dressing) ,go
>>> >> >> > together and complement each other really well. Like the bible teaches, the
>>> >> >> > knowledge of good and evil or technology is a double edged sword. You can
>>> >> >> > not have one without the other. Like playing with matches, it is not
>>> >> >> > recommended for children. As for teaching morals, I do not think it can be
>>> >> >> > taught by teachers. Education and democracy if used morally can and does
>>> >> >> > fill empty bellies.I agree with you Rigs about democracy. Democracy as we
>>> >> >> > have it in all democratic countries (except Switzerland) lasts only for a
>>> >> >> > day every 4 or 5 years when we elect representatives with meaningless
>>> >> >> > promises to represent us.
>>>
>>> >> >> > On Friday, January 18, 2013 12:54:01 PM UTC+1, rigs wrote:
>>>
>>> >> >> > > Faith and Reason are like vinegar and oil. The Enlightenment has
>>> >> >> > > brought us hence- the new Dark Ages? Technology is not a solution
>>> >> >> > > because it can be corrupted. I have much in common with a Roman matron
>>> >> >> > > of the 4th C. as I watch/read of the new barbarians. My modern
>>> >> >> > > conveniences are simply mechanical slaves. It does little good to
>>> >> >> > > teach ethics/morals when other parts of our supposed united world are
>>> >> >> > > not in sync. Education/democracy will not fill an empty belly or
>>> >> >> > > replenish wasted croplands and raw materials. Throwing money at
>>> >> >> > > unstable countries will not rescue us or them (Egypt) nor will
>>> >> >> > > allowing disasters to take their course win us friends (Syria).
>>> >> >> > > Democracy has become a bloated centralized authority so the political
>>> >> >> > > differences are meaningless. The patterns of human history have
>>> >> >> > > changed very little, unfortunately- it still remains about greed,
>>> >> >> > > power and hubris.
>>>
>>> >> >> > > On Jan 17, 7:59 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >> > > > Kaggle is also up and running, apparently producing better than expert
>>> >> >> > > > results from data crunching. The project, whether a Tower of Babel
>>> >> >> > > > confronting god or not, is underway.
>>>
>>> >> >> > > > On Jan 18, 12:22 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >> >> > > > > At last we discover the lair from which you intend to launch 'Dr No'
>>> >> >> > > > > plans Al!
>>>
>>> >> >> > > > > One can argue that democracy already uses a 'non-argument technology'
>>> >> >> > > > > called voting.
>>>
>>> >> >> > > > > In many respects Allan is right on argument being about reinforcing an
>>> >> >> > > > > individual's point of view.
>>>
>>> >> >> > > > > Studies of the Internet show the most likely reaction to facts is
>>> >> >> > > > > backfire as people dig in on their original position.
>>>
>>> >> >> > > > > Does anyone know 'where' human decision-making takes place - much
>>> >> >> > > > > modern testing indicates it comes before anything rational (the social
>>> >> >> > > > > animal thesis). Adverts are highly irrational, political bull
>>> >> >> > > > > simplistic and often not true - FDR matched others in rhetoric on not
>>> >> >> > > > > letting the English fight to the last American to get elected. Would
>>> >> >> > > > > any of us want to claim how WW2 came about - I suspect not - but even
>>> >> >> > > > > what we might know is likely more factual than those who think the
>>> >> >> > > > > Soviets were on the other side. Universal education hasn't helped
>>> >> >> > > > > much on fact bases in individuals.
>>>
>>> >> >> > > > > One has to suspect if we could build a bulldung detector it wouldn't
>>> >> >> > > > > switch off until after we shot the last politician and detergent
>>> >> >> > > > > salesman. I don't expect we can build one. Plato's suggested
>>> >> >> > > > > technology was to train Guardians - I'd prefer something much less
>>> >> >> > > > > elitist and socially constructed.
>>>
>>> >> >> > > > > Currently, we don't even have reliable voice to text - but statistical
>>> >> >> > > > > engines are reliable in translation. There are many problems - not
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> read more »
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> (
> )
> |_D Allan
>
> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> Of course I talk to myself,
> Sometimes I need expert advice..



--
(
)
|_D Allan

Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..

--